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Knockout Championship.

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Is it the knockout nature of the championship this year that's creating the excitement or have the games themselves just been better. There have been plenty of rubbish provincial championships over the years too, I don't think it's all to do with there being second chances.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 10/11/2020 20:07:20    2307340

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Is it the knockout nature of the championship this year that's creating the excitement or have the games themselves just been better. There have been plenty of rubbish provincial championships over the years too, I don't think it's all to do with there being second chances."
I think it is definitely the knockout nature of the games.

Certain counties have previously used provincial games to give squad players game time, try out tactics and positional changes, get key men back to fitness, knowing in the back of their mind that they always had the back door and scenic route if they lost a provincial game.
IMO, I think Mayo are a prime example of this - no provincial final since 2015 but still in the top 4 teams in the country...!
I think they changed their modus operandi recently with a view to the safety net provided.

Some may argue this is not the case - but just my thinking on it.

Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 3309 - 10/11/2020 21:14:17    2307366

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Is it the knockout nature of the championship this year that's creating the excitement or have the games themselves just been better. There have been plenty of rubbish provincial championships over the years too, I don't think it's all to do with there being second chances."
Provincial championships became rubbish because the GAA has allowed a massive gap to open between the few top teams and the rest. It seemed like the gap was narrowing in 2000s. The fault doesn't entirely with the GAA. There's a lot of useless county boards.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 193 - 10/11/2020 21:40:21    2307376

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Is it the knockout nature of the championship this year that's creating the excitement or have the games themselves just been better. There have been plenty of rubbish provincial championships over the years too, I don't think it's all to do with there being second chances."
I think with club games it was definitely the fact that we had games. Results for most people were secondary. Inter county I'm sure it's the knockout element. Literally everyone was talking about the cork Vs Kerry game monday, if you had a back door it would barely get a mention. The safety net is boring. Every game is high stakes now.

Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1308 - 10/11/2020 23:02:02    2307416

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Provincial championships became rubbish because the GAA has allowed a massive gap to open between the few top teams and the rest. It seemed like the gap was narrowing in 2000s. The fault doesn't entirely with the GAA. There's a lot of useless county boards."
Provincial championships became rubbish because the GAA has allowed a massive gap to open between the few top teams and the rest. It seemed like the gap was narrowing in 2000s. The fault doesn't entirely with the GAA. There's a lot of useless county boards.


With respect, that gap was caused in my opinion by the back door system in what it didn't offer as opposed to what it was meant to offer the weak counties, I could see where we are today as far back as 2002. I'll say it another way, if I was from one of the elite or stronger counties like Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Cork, and the others I would fight tooth and nail to retain and reinstate the back door system, being from a weaker county I see it differently, the back door system was put in place to give the weaker counties another day in the sun and another chance, however inadvertently perhaps it also gave the stronger counties another chance to regroup and they did more often than not at the expense of a weaker county dishing out a bigger beating. It's fair to say too that the back door indirectly led to the creation of the super 8's which doesn't help in the overall scheme of things.

The think tank people in croke park who set this in motion didn't do it to upset anyone rather to soften the blow of being knocked out in the first round and keep them from losing interest, of course there was a financial interest as well, as in extra games.

There may be useless county boards as you say, but I think that's a different argument for another day. I have tried over the years to change my views on all of this, unfortunately I can't,

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2161 - 10/11/2020 23:12:39    2307417

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Replying To supersub15:  "Provincial championships became rubbish because the GAA has allowed a massive gap to open between the few top teams and the rest. It seemed like the gap was narrowing in 2000s. The fault doesn't entirely with the GAA. There's a lot of useless county boards.


With respect, that gap was caused in my opinion by the back door system in what it didn't offer as opposed to what it was meant to offer the weak counties, I could see where we are today as far back as 2002. I'll say it another way, if I was from one of the elite or stronger counties like Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Cork, and the others I would fight tooth and nail to retain and reinstate the back door system, being from a weaker county I see it differently, the back door system was put in place to give the weaker counties another day in the sun and another chance, however inadvertently perhaps it also gave the stronger counties another chance to regroup and they did more often than not at the expense of a weaker county dishing out a bigger beating. It's fair to say too that the back door indirectly led to the creation of the super 8's which doesn't help in the overall scheme of things.

The think tank people in croke park who set this in motion didn't do it to upset anyone rather to soften the blow of being knocked out in the first round and keep them from losing interest, of course there was a financial interest as well, as in extra games.

There may be useless county boards as you say, but I think that's a different argument for another day. I have tried over the years to change my views on all of this, unfortunately I can't,"
Returning to straight knockout would require moving the League to spring/summer so intercounty teams have a good season. Run the League off in March, April, and May. Championship in June and July. Every county gets at least 8 games during the best months of the year.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 193 - 11/11/2020 14:39:49    2307621

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Replying To supersub15:  "Provincial championships became rubbish because the GAA has allowed a massive gap to open between the few top teams and the rest. It seemed like the gap was narrowing in 2000s. The fault doesn't entirely with the GAA. There's a lot of useless county boards.


With respect, that gap was caused in my opinion by the back door system in what it didn't offer as opposed to what it was meant to offer the weak counties, I could see where we are today as far back as 2002. I'll say it another way, if I was from one of the elite or stronger counties like Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Cork, and the others I would fight tooth and nail to retain and reinstate the back door system, being from a weaker county I see it differently, the back door system was put in place to give the weaker counties another day in the sun and another chance, however inadvertently perhaps it also gave the stronger counties another chance to regroup and they did more often than not at the expense of a weaker county dishing out a bigger beating. It's fair to say too that the back door indirectly led to the creation of the super 8's which doesn't help in the overall scheme of things.

The think tank people in croke park who set this in motion didn't do it to upset anyone rather to soften the blow of being knocked out in the first round and keep them from losing interest, of course there was a financial interest as well, as in extra games.

There may be useless county boards as you say, but I think that's a different argument for another day. I have tried over the years to change my views on all of this, unfortunately I can't,"
In terms of the gap widening, I do think a lot of it is to do with improvements in coaching. I also think the advent of analysis and greater tactical awareness has meant that the best teams perform close to their top level on a more consistent basis. Shocks don't happen so much because the teams with the best players don't allow them to happen as much.

I definitely think shortened preparation times and probably playing in less than perfect conditions have contributed to the levelling of the playing field.

On the qualifiers. They definitely make it more likely that a top team will ultimately win the All Ireland.

It doesn't mean it can't still be good for weaker counties too though. It's not a zero sum game. The weaker teams get more matches, you go from a case of teams getting an average of 2 matches to them getting an average of 4 matches. There's a lot to be said for that.

Maybe the season should just be 3 tiers in the league. Played roughly March, April, May moving straight into knockout All Ireland for June and July.

That might be a very good season for teams. Get 9 league games plus then their All Ireland.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 11/11/2020 15:20:57    2307640

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Returning to straight knockout would require moving the League to spring/summer so intercounty teams have a good season. Run the League off in March, April, and May. Championship in June and July. Every county gets at least 8 games during the best months of the year."
Ha I wrote the same before seeing yours.

That would make for a good season.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 11/11/2020 15:47:39    2307646

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Can't see League being reduced to 3 teams. 4 divisions of 8 is a good format. I think we'll end up with the provincial groups format. It's not great but the League proposal is actually worse and won't be accepted by Div 1 and 2 teams.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 193 - 11/11/2020 16:11:20    2307657

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Can't see League being reduced to 3 teams. 4 divisions of 8 is a good format. I think we'll end up with the provincial groups format. It's not great but the League proposal is actually worse and won't be accepted by Div 1 and 2 teams."
One of the things I don't like about what they're trying to do with that Provincial group solution is that it seems as though they're trying to replicate the hurling success in football but are missing what causes the hurling success.

The hurling is successful because they've got evenly matched top teams playing each other.

In football you're going to have a wide field split into sections where the teams are of hugely different quality. I don't want to be a pessimist but I think you're just adding a tonne of filler there.

Splitting 32 teams of varying quality over 4 provinces is so much different to splitting 10 top hurling teams between 2 provinces.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 11/11/2020 16:46:43    2307675

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Replying To Whammo86:  "One of the things I don't like about what they're trying to do with that Provincial group solution is that it seems as though they're trying to replicate the hurling success in football but are missing what causes the hurling success.

The hurling is successful because they've got evenly matched top teams playing each other.

In football you're going to have a wide field split into sections where the teams are of hugely different quality. I don't want to be a pessimist but I think you're just adding a tonne of filler there.

Splitting 32 teams of varying quality over 4 provinces is so much different to splitting 10 top hurling teams between 2 provinces."
When Croke Park introduced the Super 8's it suggested to me that they were happy to keep the qualifiers after 20 years and expand the top tier.

In fairness to Croke Park after Covid -19 arrived they decided to push on with a condensed championship over a much shorter period of time by reverting to the traditional system as in no back door.

I'm convinced but for the unfortunate arrival of the virus the back door / qualifiers would still be in place, I'm further convinced should we hopefully return to near normality in 2021 and hopefully we do, then the back door / qualifiers will be reinstated for another 20 years, - - unfortunately.

The vast majority of posters here represent their county that's in the top flight, the vibes that I continue to get is that they want to hang on to the qualifiers, tongue in cheek they might say they are open to change but no more than that, that too is after 20 years of playing to that system, I'm from a weak county and I can't wait for change, it doesn't add up.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2161 - 11/11/2020 21:18:00    2307799

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Replying To supersub15:  "When Croke Park introduced the Super 8's it suggested to me that they were happy to keep the qualifiers after 20 years and expand the top tier.

In fairness to Croke Park after Covid -19 arrived they decided to push on with a condensed championship over a much shorter period of time by reverting to the traditional system as in no back door.

I'm convinced but for the unfortunate arrival of the virus the back door / qualifiers would still be in place, I'm further convinced should we hopefully return to near normality in 2021 and hopefully we do, then the back door / qualifiers will be reinstated for another 20 years, - - unfortunately.

The vast majority of posters here represent their county that's in the top flight, the vibes that I continue to get is that they want to hang on to the qualifiers, tongue in cheek they might say they are open to change but no more than that, that too is after 20 years of playing to that system, I'm from a weak county and I can't wait for change, it doesn't add up."
Qualifiers are not being scrapped. Big shocks are great but Whammo is right when he says that most fans want to see the best teams at the business end of the Championship.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 193 - 11/11/2020 23:11:41    2307828

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Qualifiers are not being scrapped. Big shocks are great but Whammo is right when he says that most fans want to see the best teams at the business end of the Championship."
This year also gives an example of why it's important for the top teams to play one another in the main competition.

You look at Kerry, they won the National league this season and yet this will probably go down as one of their worst seasons in 20 odd years.

The league doesn't really matter. If you're a division 1 team, you're aim is to finish top 6. It's only the lower levels where the league means anything.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 12/11/2020 03:59:40    2307847

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Replying To Whammo86:  "This year also gives an example of why it's important for the top teams to play one another in the main competition.

You look at Kerry, they won the National league this season and yet this will probably go down as one of their worst seasons in 20 odd years.

The league doesn't really matter. If you're a division 1 team, you're aim is to finish top 6. It's only the lower levels where the league means anything."
It's only the lower levels where the league means anything. - - that may be true to some extent, but so do does the championship proper mean a lot to the weaker counties,

Either way Whammo86 etc, neither of us is going to win this debate, it's a pity really because one of the most exciting games in the lsfc this year was the game between Carlow / Offaly, as a Carlow man I don't think we should have got a second chance, so why should Kerry or Tyrone or Roscommon they got their chance, unfortunately for them it didn't work out on the day.

As an aside, I really wish Kerry every success in the future; I also wish their manager Peter Keane good health a speedy recovery and greater success from here on in - - - through the front door. - lol.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2161 - 12/11/2020 10:13:24    2307883

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Replying To supersub15:  "It's only the lower levels where the league means anything. - - that may be true to some extent, but so do does the championship proper mean a lot to the weaker counties,

Either way Whammo86 etc, neither of us is going to win this debate, it's a pity really because one of the most exciting games in the lsfc this year was the game between Carlow / Offaly, as a Carlow man I don't think we should have got a second chance, so why should Kerry or Tyrone or Roscommon they got their chance, unfortunately for them it didn't work out on the day.

As an aside, I really wish Kerry every success in the future; I also wish their manager Peter Keane good health a speedy recovery and greater success from here on in - - - through the front door. - lol."
That's fair man. I completely agree it's just a matter of preference and do understand where you're coming from.

Agree on Kerry. All the best for Carlow too. Unlucky this year but it's been excellent to see them have some relative successes over the years.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 12/11/2020 12:27:14    2307928

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Colin O Riordan available to play for Tipperary in Munster final. 2 Afl players on show

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2216 - 12/11/2020 13:10:44    2307956

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Replying To FoolsGold:  "Colin O Riordan available to play for Tipperary in Munster final. 2 Afl players on show"
Thats huge.

This is set up perfectly for a tipp ambush, you cannot discount quality like Sweeney, Quinlivan and o'Riordan, plus cork poured everything into that kerry game, they will struggle to hit that intensity again

HuddHastings (Longford) - Posts: 77 - 12/11/2020 13:38:45    2307969

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Replying To FoolsGold:  "Colin O Riordan available to play for Tipperary in Munster final. 2 Afl players on show"
That's great news about O'Riordan but I héard Keane might have to go back to his club in Oz.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11732 - 12/11/2020 14:08:27    2307982

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Yea, Jack Kennedy, Stephen O Brien, Robbie Kiely very good players too.
Tipperary made a All Ireland Semi a few years ago so won't have any fear.

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2216 - 12/11/2020 14:11:42    2307985

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Replying To supersub15:  "It's only the lower levels where the league means anything. - - that may be true to some extent, but so do does the championship proper mean a lot to the weaker counties,

Either way Whammo86 etc, neither of us is going to win this debate, it's a pity really because one of the most exciting games in the lsfc this year was the game between Carlow / Offaly, as a Carlow man I don't think we should have got a second chance, so why should Kerry or Tyrone or Roscommon they got their chance, unfortunately for them it didn't work out on the day.

As an aside, I really wish Kerry every success in the future; I also wish their manager Peter Keane good health a speedy recovery and greater success from here on in - - - through the front door. - lol."
Every team gets a second chance (except this year). Or are you referring to the GAA's plan to take Div 3 and 4 teams out of the qualifiers? They were brought in because the old straight knockout system was stale and fans were losing interest. We aren't returning to the old system.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 193 - 12/11/2020 19:49:39    2308138

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