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On the basis of today's games (and two games in particular) a serious argument can and should be made for restructuring the intercounty calendar. I don't know how many times it has been said on here before but straight knockout championship should be retained permanently from the beginning of the year while the league should be kept in its current format. However, the timing of the two competitions should be reversed. Championship from March - May, league from June - August. This way teams like Wicklow (and dozens of others) are guaranteed at least seven competitive games during the summer against teams of a similar ability to themselves at a time when all players want to be playing as much football as possible. This eliminates the prospect of training all year and throughout the winter for just two games of football, which frankly isn't much better than the prospect of training all year and throughout the winter for just one game of football, a problem the backdoor was originally intended to resolve.
I don't think it's any exaggeration to say that the league has taken on a resurgence in recent years in terms of intrigue. Granted, this is probably due in large part to the dominance of a select few counties, particularly Dublin, which eliminated dozens of teams from having any real chance or expectation of winning an All-Ireland or even provincial championship. Even whenever an upset did occur, it was assumed that those beaten teams would regroup before going on a run for the All-Ireland which diminished the significance of the upset. Cork's victory over Kerry today shows how meaningful an upset can be when it puts away the stronger team for the entire championship year (granted the dramatic nature of the last second winner would be exciting enough in any match). We saw this for years in the previous decade where Cork would beat Kerry in Munster and then lose to them in Croke Park later on in the year which always took a bit of the shine off their accomplishments in beating Kerry in the Munster championship knowing that Cork might beat Kerry once but they wouldn't beat them a second time when it really mattered.
From a purely financial and economic point of view having the leagues played in summer makes a lot more sense too particularly for sponsorships and advertising purposes when it is known that teams are guaranteed to have seven games played during the summer when attendances are likely to be higher in warmer temperatures and when there is a greater chance of weaker counties having their games televised in their entirety (if league games are to occur on alternate weekends, e.g. Divisions 1 and 3 play their games on one weekend, Divisions 2 and 4 play their games the following weekend). As teams know from the beginning of the year which teams they will be playing in the league, plans can be made long in advance about arranging to go to an away fixture, potentially on the other side of the country as opposed to playing against a neighbouring county in a neighbouring venue, be it as part of a weekend getaway, family holiday, chance to visit friends and/or family in a county that you don't normally get the chance to visit. This is something that is not as feasible with the championship when there is no guarantee of your team advancing past the first round in the province and then not knowing which county you will be playing in the following round or where that fixture will be played until just a couple of weeks before that next game is due to be played (and as already alluded to, it's not as appealing to make plans for the first provincial championship match when it's only down the road in comparison - not saying it doesn't happen just that it doesn't happen to the same extent).
The fact that the majority of counties do not change division annually by virtue of neither being promoted nor relegated, there is a new rivalry element being added there to see how your county has progressed over the past 12 months against a team your county played the previous year, particularly when your county plays this same county several years in a row. In recent times for those counties that didn't have any realistic expectation of winning a championship. getting a win over a neighbouring county was as good as it got for securing bragging rights for the next year and could be seen as a successful year but beating a team that has beaten your team the previous year or two in the league or beating a team that your county has beaten and lost to over the previous two years, i.e. a 'best of three' is another way of having a successful year, even if it doesn't mean actually winning the divison outright. As well as that, for supporters, watching your team regularly can give greater momentum and interest into the team and fuel debates with friends and family regarding who's playing well, who should be starting the next day, etc. These things don't happen to the same extent when a county plays one championship match and then has to wait several weeks before playing again.
As for club games the restructure would be similar but different - league games in the summer from June - August, club championships from September - November. This way club players are guaranteed a high number of competitive games on a regular basis during the summer. The biggest hurdle to this is quite frankly the notion that championship is the priority competition. I've been discussing this proposal for about a year now and it's nearly always met with a 'Yeah, but championship has to be played in the summer.' "Why?" 'Because it's the main competition.' Okay, championship has the name and all the history that goes with it, fair enough. But this is the only sporting association in the world as far as I'm aware (certainly open to correction on this) that prioritises its knockout competition over the longer-term, more structured competition and even with this proposal the championship isn't going anywhere. There will still be an an All-Ireland champion and provincial champions the same as there ever was. A much bigger change to the history and significance of the championship was introducing the back door for the first time after 116 years of straight knockout football. Moving it around by a couple of months is not a change anywhere near the same level that that change was. For an organisation that is so willing to change its rules of play every couple of years, it baffles me that this change has not been introduced to the calendar yet. As with each of those individual rules changes within games it has proven that players, management, and spectators are very adaptable. Once the ball is thrown in all that matters is your team getting control of it and scoring more than the opposition. If all else fails the calendar can always go back to the way it was but we may as well look for some silver lining in the opportunity Covid has given us to rethink how and when championships and leagues are played in future years.
OnePointWin (Meath) - Posts: 1 - 08/11/2020 21:57:25
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Conor Sweeneys point from sideline, to send game into extra time, was pure class. Wrong angle for a left footed taker too.
FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2216 - 08/11/2020 22:28:15
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Replying To Fionn: "Game could possibly be over by the 1st water break... it could be a cricket score.
Anyone who thinks Cork will win, needs to see a doctor.. ;o)
kerry wont need to get out of 2nd gear for this one unfortunately.
No offence Cork posters, but completely different levels.
I reckon 10pts plus defeat for the Rebels.
Hope I am wrong though." I had a feeling Cork would give them a good test, wasn't expecting that result though.
is this the biggest upset since Donegal beat Dublin in the 2014 semi final?
Dublin must be even shorter favs for Sam now. Well done to Cork, reminds me of Seamus Darby's goal to stop the 5 in a row all those years ago, some sick heads in Kerry tonight.
Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 1076 - 08/11/2020 22:46:32
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On the basis of today's games (and two games in particular) a serious argument can and should be made for restructuring the intercounty calendar. I don't know how many times it has been said on here before but straight knockout championship should be retained permanently from the beginning of the year while the league should be kept in its current format. However, the timing of the two competitions should be reversed. Championship from March - May, league from June - August. This way teams like Wicklow (and dozens of others) are guaranteed at least seven competitive games during the summer against teams of a similar ability to themselves at a time when all players want to be playing as much football as possible. This eliminates the prospect of training all year and throughout the winter for just two games of football, which frankly isn't much better than the prospect of training all year and throughout the winter for just one game of football, a problem the backdoor was originally intended to resolve.
OnePointWin (Meath) - Posts: 1 - 08/11/2020 21:57:25 Yes restructuring of the championship is needed but just reversing the competitions is just missing the point.
Play the league and championship at the same time. Play the early rounds of the provincial championships and all iireland championships which should be separate but a link back into latter stages of all ireland for provincial champions or something as a reward.
You dont have to play one competition in full before starting the next.
From a purely financial and economic point of view having the leagues played in summer makes a lot more sense too particularly for sponsorships and advertising purposes when it is known that teams are guaranteed to have seven games played during the summer when attendances are likely to be higher in warmer temperatures and when there is a greater chance of weaker counties having their games televised in their entirety (if league games are to occur on alternate weekends, e.g. Divisions 1 and 3 play their games on one weekend, Divisions 2 and 4 play their games the following weekend). As teams know from the beginning of the year which teams they will be playing in the league, plans can be made long in advance about arranging to go to an away fixture, potentially on the other side of the country as opposed to playing against a neighbouring county in a neighbouring venue, be it as part of a weekend getaway, family holiday, chance to visit friends and/or family in a county that you don't normally get the chance to visit. This is something that is not as feasible with the championship when there is no guarantee of your team advancing past the first round in the province and then not knowing which county you will be playing in the following round or where that fixture will be played until just a couple of weeks before that next game is due to be played (and as already alluded to, it's not as appealing to make plans for the first provincial championship match when it's only down the road in comparison - not saying it doesn't happen just that it doesn't happen to the same extent).
OnePointWin (Meath) - Posts: 1 - 08/11/2020 21:57:25 Play both at the same time. Makes far more sense in terms of sponsorship and advertising. Would help crowds at league games. Imagine a smaller/weaker county makes a shock in opening round of a provincial/all ireland championship and has a few division 2/3 league games to play. That would definitely see a large increase in attendance. And also help with structuring club games.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1636 - 09/11/2020 00:19:31
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Replying To OnePointWin: "On the basis of today's games (and two games in particular) a serious argument can and should be made for restructuring the intercounty calendar. I don't know how many times it has been said on here before but straight knockout championship should be retained permanently from the beginning of the year while the league should be kept in its current format. However, the timing of the two competitions should be reversed. Championship from March - May, league from June - August. This way teams like Wicklow (and dozens of others) are guaranteed at least seven competitive games during the summer against teams of a similar ability to themselves at a time when all players want to be playing as much football as possible. This eliminates the prospect of training all year and throughout the winter for just two games of football, which frankly isn't much better than the prospect of training all year and throughout the winter for just one game of football, a problem the backdoor was originally intended to resolve.
I don't think it's any exaggeration to say that the league has taken on a resurgence in recent years in terms of intrigue. Granted, this is probably due in large part to the dominance of a select few counties, particularly Dublin, which eliminated dozens of teams from having any real chance or expectation of winning an All-Ireland or even provincial championship. Even whenever an upset did occur, it was assumed that those beaten teams would regroup before going on a run for the All-Ireland which diminished the significance of the upset. Cork's victory over Kerry today shows how meaningful an upset can be when it puts away the stronger team for the entire championship year (granted the dramatic nature of the last second winner would be exciting enough in any match). We saw this for years in the previous decade where Cork would beat Kerry in Munster and then lose to them in Croke Park later on in the year which always took a bit of the shine off their accomplishments in beating Kerry in the Munster championship knowing that Cork might beat Kerry once but they wouldn't beat them a second time when it really mattered.
From a purely financial and economic point of view having the leagues played in summer makes a lot more sense too particularly for sponsorships and advertising purposes when it is known that teams are guaranteed to have seven games played during the summer when attendances are likely to be higher in warmer temperatures and when there is a greater chance of weaker counties having their games televised in their entirety (if league games are to occur on alternate weekends, e.g. Divisions 1 and 3 play their games on one weekend, Divisions 2 and 4 play their games the following weekend). As teams know from the beginning of the year which teams they will be playing in the league, plans can be made long in advance about arranging to go to an away fixture, potentially on the other side of the country as opposed to playing against a neighbouring county in a neighbouring venue, be it as part of a weekend getaway, family holiday, chance to visit friends and/or family in a county that you don't normally get the chance to visit. This is something that is not as feasible with the championship when there is no guarantee of your team advancing past the first round in the province and then not knowing which county you will be playing in the following round or where that fixture will be played until just a couple of weeks before that next game is due to be played (and as already alluded to, it's not as appealing to make plans for the first provincial championship match when it's only down the road in comparison - not saying it doesn't happen just that it doesn't happen to the same extent).
The fact that the majority of counties do not change division annually by virtue of neither being promoted nor relegated, there is a new rivalry element being added there to see how your county has progressed over the past 12 months against a team your county played the previous year, particularly when your county plays this same county several years in a row. In recent times for those counties that didn't have any realistic expectation of winning a championship. getting a win over a neighbouring county was as good as it got for securing bragging rights for the next year and could be seen as a successful year but beating a team that has beaten your team the previous year or two in the league or beating a team that your county has beaten and lost to over the previous two years, i.e. a 'best of three' is another way of having a successful year, even if it doesn't mean actually winning the divison outright. As well as that, for supporters, watching your team regularly can give greater momentum and interest into the team and fuel debates with friends and family regarding who's playing well, who should be starting the next day, etc. These things don't happen to the same extent when a county plays one championship match and then has to wait several weeks before playing again.
As for club games the restructure would be similar but different - league games in the summer from June - August, club championships from September - November. This way club players are guaranteed a high number of competitive games on a regular basis during the summer. The biggest hurdle to this is quite frankly the notion that championship is the priority competition. I've been discussing this proposal for about a year now and it's nearly always met with a 'Yeah, but championship has to be played in the summer.' "Why?" 'Because it's the main competition.' Okay, championship has the name and all the history that goes with it, fair enough. But this is the only sporting association in the world as far as I'm aware (certainly open to correction on this) that prioritises its knockout competition over the longer-term, more structured competition and even with this proposal the championship isn't going anywhere. There will still be an an All-Ireland champion and provincial champions the same as there ever was. A much bigger change to the history and significance of the championship was introducing the back door for the first time after 116 years of straight knockout football. Moving it around by a couple of months is not a change anywhere near the same level that that change was. For an organisation that is so willing to change its rules of play every couple of years, it baffles me that this change has not been introduced to the calendar yet. As with each of those individual rules changes within games it has proven that players, management, and spectators are very adaptable. Once the ball is thrown in all that matters is your team getting control of it and scoring more than the opposition. If all else fails the calendar can always go back to the way it was but we may as well look for some silver lining in the opportunity Covid has given us to rethink how and when championships and leagues are played in future years." Knock out is proper championship football, and the way it should be; no second chances. The league is for there for that.
Of course, money will dictate that CP doesn't go back to the old system of straight KO.
Although the football may not have been as good years ago, straight knock out made for a better championship.
Just like Cork did yesterday, the underdog can size up a big scalp and take it, on the once off. The back door and stupid 8's defeat that purpose. With straight KO there'd be no need for a Hill of Tara Cup or whatever they're going to call the AI 'B' competition.
Bring back the straight knock out permanently.
foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 31 - 09/11/2020 02:22:14
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Replying To Tirchonaill1: "I had a feeling Cork would give them a good test, wasn't expecting that result though.
is this the biggest upset since Donegal beat Dublin in the 2014 semi final?
Dublin must be even shorter favs for Sam now. Well done to Cork, reminds me of Seamus Darby's goal to stop the 5 in a row all those years ago, some sick heads in Kerry tonight." Huge upset imo.
Anyone I know, fully expected a kerry win.
But as you say, Donegal beating Dublin in 2014 was a huge upset for most people also.
Have a feeling there could be a few more shocks this year yet.
A lot of angry kerry folk folk about, and most of their anger is at PK and his negative tactics.
Set them up with a different game in mind and paid the price.
But to be fair to him, some of their stellar players had an off day too. DC and SOS missed easy chances.
Weather didnt help but there will be a huge amount of regrets in that camp I think..
A lot of them fully expected to win Sam this year and many others, including myself, thought so as well.
No back door changes things dramatically....
Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 3309 - 09/11/2020 09:15:18
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Have to say it really has been thrilling so far.
Between the last second drame in clones last week with ray galligans wonderscore and now this and the lim-tipp game.
If nothing else hopefully its the death knell at the super 8's, the impact of the cork win yesterday would have been totally dulled by kerry regrouping and then whipping them in the back door at a later stage.
Absolutely anything is possible in this years championship now. Mayo will be absolutely licking their lips
HuddHastings (Longford) - Posts: 77 - 09/11/2020 09:44:43
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Replying To Tirchonaill1: "I had a feeling Cork would give them a good test, wasn't expecting that result though.
is this the biggest upset since Donegal beat Dublin in the 2014 semi final?
Dublin must be even shorter favs for Sam now. Well done to Cork, reminds me of Seamus Darby's goal to stop the 5 in a row all those years ago, some sick heads in Kerry tonight." I feel there has been a lot of retrospection on the Dublin Donegal game in 2014 in terms of it being a "shock".
The All-Ireland Champions from 2012 beating the All-Ireland Champions in 2013 in the 2014 Championship shouldn't really be a huge shock.
I think what Dublin have done since has made it seem more shocking than it actually was.
Even at the time I thought the whole "shock" element was over hyped by the media and was a little disrespectful to a very talented Donegal team.
Yesterday was this year's Division Champions being knocked out by a team that played in Division 3. A much bigger shock in my opinion.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 09/11/2020 10:31:52
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Replying To MesAmis: "I feel there has been a lot of retrospection on the Dublin Donegal game in 2014 in terms of it being a "shock".
The All-Ireland Champions from 2012 beating the All-Ireland Champions in 2013 in the 2014 Championship shouldn't really be a huge shock.
I think what Dublin have done since has made it seem more shocking than it actually was.
Even at the time I thought the whole "shock" element was over hyped by the media and was a little disrespectful to a very talented Donegal team.
Yesterday was this year's Division Champions being knocked out by a team that played in Division 3. A much bigger shock in my opinion." Fair point..!
Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 3309 - 09/11/2020 10:38:49
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The system should be 8 groups of 4 .Then straight into knockout football.Either top 8 go through Quarter finals or 16 teams go through to knock out stages.
Get rid of the provisionals,Out dated at this stage.MOVE ON !!!
ifindoubt (Donegal) - Posts: 114 - 09/11/2020 10:44:24
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Replying To MesAmis: "I feel there has been a lot of retrospection on the Dublin Donegal game in 2014 in terms of it being a "shock".
The All-Ireland Champions from 2012 beating the All-Ireland Champions in 2013 in the 2014 Championship shouldn't really be a huge shock.
I think what Dublin have done since has made it seem more shocking than it actually was.
Even at the time I thought the whole "shock" element was over hyped by the media and was a little disrespectful to a very talented Donegal team.
Yesterday was this year's Division Champions being knocked out by a team that played in Division 3. A much bigger shock in my opinion." We were 10/1 underdogs. Nobody outside the county gave us a prayer. I remember plenty of Dubs in the build up being respectful but fully expecting a 4-5 point win, yous had too much firepower. Murphy and I think Frank McGlynn were the only two players that would make it into the Dublin team pre-match. If you watch any of the highlights back all of the commentary is about how unbelievable it is. The only person at half-time saying the point scoring from the Dubs was unsustainable was Brolly. Maybe that was the media more than the ordinary GAA supporter but I don't think so personally, the bookies rarely get it as wrong as they did that day.
However I do think Cork beating Kerry is a way way bigger shock because of the reasons you outline, we should never have been such huge underdogs that day considering we were All-Ireland champions 2 years previous and had come back up from Div 2 earlier in the year. Cork's success at youth level meant you would be optimistic for this result coming soon but not this year, not a hope. Amazing result.
JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1125 - 09/11/2020 10:45:58
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Talk to a Derry or Donegal fan from the early 90's and both will say that if the back door had been in place back then they would have more All Irelands. In the years 91 to 94 there wasn't much between Down, Derry and Donegal. They all won All Irelands and beat each other on course to do it. Who knows if Down would have done 4 in a row or Derry/Donegal done a back to back. That's the beauty of knockout championship but it will never come back as the money generated from the system of Super 8's and QF etc. brings more money to the GAA.
Tir Conaill Abu (Donegal) - Posts: 1635 - 09/11/2020 10:48:31
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Replying To MesAmis: "I feel there has been a lot of retrospection on the Dublin Donegal game in 2014 in terms of it being a "shock".
The All-Ireland Champions from 2012 beating the All-Ireland Champions in 2013 in the 2014 Championship shouldn't really be a huge shock.
I think what Dublin have done since has made it seem more shocking than it actually was.
Even at the time I thought the whole "shock" element was over hyped by the media and was a little disrespectful to a very talented Donegal team.
Yesterday was this year's Division Champions being knocked out by a team that played in Division 3. A much bigger shock in my opinion." I see your point but we were 6/1 underdogs that day, nobody gave us a chance and most of our own fans thought we hadn't much hope either, Jim had a plan though and the players to implement it. don't know what odds Cork were yesterday but I'd imagine they were something similar.
It felt like a hell of a shock that day in 2014 anyway but I must say the Dubs fans took it well and wished us all the best in the final.
Delighted for Cork but they have to focus on Tipp now, very easy to get carried away, great to have the football back, brightens up these dark dreary days.
Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 1076 - 09/11/2020 10:48:38
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Replying To Tirchonaill1: "I see your point but we were 6/1 underdogs that day, nobody gave us a chance and most of our own fans thought we hadn't much hope either, Jim had a plan though and the players to implement it. don't know what odds Cork were yesterday but I'd imagine they were something similar.
It felt like a hell of a shock that day in 2014 anyway but I must say the Dubs fans took it well and wished us all the best in the final.
Delighted for Cork but they have to focus on Tipp now, very easy to get carried away, great to have the football back, brightens up these dark dreary days." The fact yous weren't given a chance by many before the game in 2014 was wrong too. At the time I remember being quite confused by the media narrative. Again it was the AI Champions from 2012 playing the 2013 Champions in 2014. It made no sense at all that Donegal were being completely written off. I think Dublin's hammering of Monaghan and Donegal's struggle to beat Armagh in the previous round probably had a bit to do with it to be fair. Also the 5 in a row afterwards has clouded the judgement as well. Ironically I don't think the 5 in a row happens without that defeat.
Personally I felt coming into that game that Dublin would win but I thought the narrative around the game was wrong.
I think in terms of the narrative it was a shock but I think if you look at that game dispassionately and away from the media narrative I think it becomes much less of a shock.
The football, and to a lesser extent, the hurling are really brightening up the weekends at the moment.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 09/11/2020 10:58:45
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Replying To DUBJOHN: "I doubt you'll be hearing from that lad for a while!" Nothing from his alterego Hermit either
Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 09/11/2020 11:00:16
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Replying To JoeSoap: "We were 10/1 underdogs. Nobody outside the county gave us a prayer. I remember plenty of Dubs in the build up being respectful but fully expecting a 4-5 point win, yous had too much firepower. Murphy and I think Frank McGlynn were the only two players that would make it into the Dublin team pre-match. If you watch any of the highlights back all of the commentary is about how unbelievable it is. The only person at half-time saying the point scoring from the Dubs was unsustainable was Brolly. Maybe that was the media more than the ordinary GAA supporter but I don't think so personally, the bookies rarely get it as wrong as they did that day.
However I do think Cork beating Kerry is a way way bigger shock because of the reasons you outline, we should never have been such huge underdogs that day considering we were All-Ireland champions 2 years previous and had come back up from Div 2 earlier in the year. Cork's success at youth level meant you would be optimistic for this result coming soon but not this year, not a hope. Amazing result." I remember Donegal's odds significantly shortening though during the week as people realised that their odds were way too long.
Like I said above I think the narrative around that game was always a little skewed and kind of disrespectful of what was an excellent Donegal side.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 09/11/2020 11:01:01
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Replying To Tir Conaill Abu: "Talk to a Derry or Donegal fan from the early 90's and both will say that if the back door had been in place back then they would have more All Irelands. In the years 91 to 94 there wasn't much between Down, Derry and Donegal. They all won All Irelands and beat each other on course to do it. Who knows if Down would have done 4 in a row or Derry/Donegal done a back to back. That's the beauty of knockout championship but it will never come back as the money generated from the system of Super 8's and QF etc. brings more money to the GAA." Without a doubt, look at the '94 first round Derry v Down, one of the greatest matches of all time between two of the best teams in the country. Tyrone were a coming team too in 1994.
And I'm still annoyed about the '93 Ulster final, a rotten day altogether and our boys would have loved a back door after losing that one.
JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1125 - 09/11/2020 11:05:29
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Replying To Breezy: "Nothing from his alterego Hermit either" :)
Dubsfan28 (Dublin) - Posts: 2352 - 09/11/2020 11:40:28
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Replying To MesAmis: "I remember Donegal's odds significantly shortening though during the week as people realised that their odds were way too long.
Like I said above I think the narrative around that game was always a little skewed and kind of disrespectful of what was an excellent Donegal side." We're agreed there, the narrative was all wrong but I think you have to say the vast vast majority could only see a Dublin win. In fairness nobody saw Dublin being stopped that year.
JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1125 - 09/11/2020 11:57:43
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Replying To HuddHastings: "Have to say it really has been thrilling so far.
Between the last second drame in clones last week with ray galligans wonderscore and now this and the lim-tipp game.
If nothing else hopefully its the death knell at the super 8's, the impact of the cork win yesterday would have been totally dulled by kerry regrouping and then whipping them in the back door at a later stage.
Absolutely anything is possible in this years championship now. Mayo will be absolutely licking their lips" Its Mayos year no doubt.. second favourites now
Galwaymaster9 (Galway) - Posts: 270 - 09/11/2020 12:10:46
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