National Forum

Knockout Championship.

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Replying To Whammo86:  "There's advantages to knockout championship, you do get a game like yesterday being more high stakes.

There are costs to it though too.

Fewer games between the top teams.

For me the balance is league phase followed by playoffs. Works in plenty of other sports.

There's lot of ways it could be done.

2 groups of 8 in a tier 1
1 division of 14 in a tier 1
2 groups of 10 in a tier 1.

You're getting more games between the top teams, not dragging out the competition too low and finishing off with knockout football at the end amongst real challengers."
A league followed by playoffs is only used in American sports. Soccer and rugby all have leagues and separate cup competitions. I also think the tiers should have 16 teams each. Why have 14 instead of 16? I would prefer if they adopted a Champions League format for 3 years and then use tiers if the weaker counties are still getting hammered.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 193 - 01/11/2020 14:38:34    2303814

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "I have always thought that the best system would be a summer league overlapped with a seeded knockout championship. The league would probably become the main competition over time which is fine.

The provincial championships could be played in the spring but I don't think it makes any sense to have them as part of the championship any more. They are too unbalanced, particularly in Munster and Leinster. The provincial councils would never allow that of course, but that would be my dream format."
I'd be worried that one of the competitions would become a secondary competition and get devalued over time, like the fa cup in soccer for instance.

I think the consecutive competitions rather than concurrent competitions works well.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 01/11/2020 14:51:38    2303822

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Rugby league, union, AFL all use a league format followed by knockout not just American sports. The GAA leagues are of course unbalanced because teams do not get opponents both home and away and also there is a 4 -3 split home and away as it stands . There is no reason except tradition to continue with both league and championship and to merge all into one is the easy solution.

catchturnscore (Longford) - Posts: 116 - 01/11/2020 15:21:02    2303844

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Replying To Whammo86:  "There's advantages to knockout championship, you do get a game like yesterday being more high stakes.

There are costs to it though too.

Fewer games between the top teams.

For me the balance is league phase followed by playoffs. Works in plenty of other sports.

There's lot of ways it could be done.

2 groups of 8 in a tier 1
1 division of 14 in a tier 1
2 groups of 10 in a tier 1.

You're getting more games between the top teams, not dragging out the competition too low and finishing off with knockout football at the end amongst real challengers."
But the thing is the leagues provide plenty of games between the top teams and that's what makes them good competitions. I think the Gaa could market them better and perhaps move them further towards summer so we have the best teams playing each other in the best weather, but that's a debate for another day.

I think the leagues have sort of risen in importance almost by accident rather than by design, perhaps due to more tv coverage. I don't think people took them nearly as seriously back in the 80s and 90s for example, although some may dispute that.

For me straight knockout football amd hurling is great though, I know it's hard when you lose because that's it but it's bloody fantastic when you win and there's a sense of urgency in every single game, no dead rubbers. Now I'm not closed minded to new ideas but I do want to stress the benefits of a straight KO system.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 01/11/2020 15:25:30    2303851

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "A league followed by playoffs is only used in American sports. Soccer and rugby all have leagues and separate cup competitions. I also think the tiers should have 16 teams each. Why have 14 instead of 16? I would prefer if they adopted a Champions League format for 3 years and then use tiers if the weaker counties are still getting hammered."
With a 14 team tier 1 you can run a 13 round league phase and 3 round knockout phase over 16 game weeks. That can be fit then into a 5 month calendar time period with break weekends. You can't really have a much longer season without impacting club competitions.

The 18 tier 2 teams wouldn't be able to play a full round robin but they could play say 12 league phase games (playing all but 5 teams each) before moving forward to a knockout phase for the championship and promotion.

Rugby uses league followed playoffs. Pro 14, Premiership, Super Rugby, Top 14. Rugby league's super league and NRL use playoffs. Aussie rules use playoffs.

Mainly it's soccer than doesn't but most other sports do and you can see why.

Every team gets a good program of games, then you finish the season off with do or die fixtures for the championship.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 01/11/2020 15:50:49    2303885

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Replying To yew_tree:  "Don't agree with straight knockout to determine the best team. A Champions league style format maybe but I think the Blackfoot has added more, raised the profile and generally benefited the GAA. Fact is the longer more teams are involved the greater the interest.

Most people loose interest when their own county is out and revert to focus on their club."
I have to strongly disagree, and I'm glad I lived to see a championship without the back door system, one thing's for sure Offaly don't have to worry about the possibility of meeting Carlow again in this championship, the best team won on the day, best of luck to Offaly.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2161 - 01/11/2020 15:51:27    2303887

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Replying To supersub15:  "I have to strongly disagree, and I'm glad I lived to see a championship without the back door system, one thing's for sure Offaly don't have to worry about the possibility of meeting Carlow again in this championship, the best team won on the day, best of luck to Offaly."
Thanks Supersub, we made it hard today. Hard to see us beating Kildare next week.

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 112 - 01/11/2020 16:00:08    2303895

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Replying To Htaem:  "But the thing is the leagues provide plenty of games between the top teams and that's what makes them good competitions. I think the Gaa could market them better and perhaps move them further towards summer so we have the best teams playing each other in the best weather, but that's a debate for another day.

I think the leagues have sort of risen in importance almost by accident rather than by design, perhaps due to more tv coverage. I don't think people took them nearly as seriously back in the 80s and 90s for example, although some may dispute that.

For me straight knockout football amd hurling is great though, I know it's hard when you lose because that's it but it's bloody fantastic when you win and there's a sense of urgency in every single game, no dead rubbers. Now I'm not closed minded to new ideas but I do want to stress the benefits of a straight KO system."
Thank you, well put.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2161 - 01/11/2020 16:00:17    2303896

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Replying To browncows:  "You may be correct but its helping to damage club football which should be the main focus of our games. Clubs around the country do not know when club championships finish, or how long they championship is going to be -this year was an exception.
Not sure what you meant by Blackfoot- were they not a Noth American Indian tribe! (dry joke, don't take offence)"
We did this year...and even last. I think more emphasis is being placed towards club football. A split season is something I would favour.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 10339 - 01/11/2020 16:31:48    2303916

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Replying To Htaem:  "But the thing is the leagues provide plenty of games between the top teams and that's what makes them good competitions. I think the Gaa could market them better and perhaps move them further towards summer so we have the best teams playing each other in the best weather, but that's a debate for another day.

I think the leagues have sort of risen in importance almost by accident rather than by design, perhaps due to more tv coverage. I don't think people took them nearly as seriously back in the 80s and 90s for example, although some may dispute that.

For me straight knockout football amd hurling is great though, I know it's hard when you lose because that's it but it's bloody fantastic when you win and there's a sense of urgency in every single game, no dead rubbers. Now I'm not closed minded to new ideas but I do want to stress the benefits of a straight KO system."
I see where you're coming from and can appreciate it too. I loved the straight knockout competition back before the back door.

I guess I just think it's a bit weird to have the most important competition be the one with fewer games.

I also just think that whilst the league is good during it, it's not actually all that important. It's forgotten about by the top teams come 1st April.

Did Dublin really care that Mayo won in 2019, did Mayo even really care that they won in 2019.

It's all about Sam for these counties and I just think it'd be good for them to go at it against each other week in week out in the main competition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 01/11/2020 16:32:43    2303917

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I see where you're coming from and can appreciate it too. I loved the straight knockout competition back before the back door.

I guess I just think it's a bit weird to have the most important competition be the one with fewer games.

I also just think that whilst the league is good during it, it's not actually all that important. It's forgotten about by the top teams come 1st April.

Did Dublin really care that Mayo won in 2019, did Mayo even really care that they won in 2019.

It's all about Sam for these counties and I just think it'd be good for them to go at it against each other week in week out in the main competition."
Championship has always been the premier competition and it's not strange at all. You can't just undo history by making the League the premier competition.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 193 - 01/11/2020 16:59:02    2303939

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Replying To Whammo86:  "With a 14 team tier 1 you can run a 13 round league phase and 3 round knockout phase over 16 game weeks. That can be fit then into a 5 month calendar time period with break weekends. You can't really have a much longer season without impacting club competitions.

The 18 tier 2 teams wouldn't be able to play a full round robin but they could play say 12 league phase games (playing all but 5 teams each) before moving forward to a knockout phase for the championship and promotion.

Rugby uses league followed playoffs. Pro 14, Premiership, Super Rugby, Top 14. Rugby league's super league and NRL use playoffs. Aussie rules use playoffs.

Mainly it's soccer than doesn't but most other sports do and you can see why.

Every team gets a good program of games, then you finish the season off with do or die fixtures for the championship."
Or just have two groups of 8 in each tier so every county gets a minimum number of games. 14 and 18 is an odd division to use. It's easy to give a good program of games to clubs in other sports because they are the primary unit. We need to stop treating counties like clubs.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 193 - 01/11/2020 17:05:11    2303947

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Or just have two groups of 8 in each tier so every county gets a minimum number of games. 14 and 18 is an odd division to use. It's easy to give a good program of games to clubs in other sports because they are the primary unit. We need to stop treating counties like clubs."
2 groups of 8 would work very well too I think.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 01/11/2020 18:07:22    2303987

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Championship has always been the premier competition and it's not strange at all. You can't just undo history by making the League the premier competition."
Nobody is saying make the league the premier competition but change your championship to include a league format and you can get a better format for all.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1636 - 01/11/2020 20:35:58    2304096

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Replying To Whammo86:  "With a 14 team tier 1 you can run a 13 round league phase and 3 round knockout phase over 16 game weeks. That can be fit then into a 5 month calendar time period with break weekends. You can't really have a much longer season without impacting club competitions.

The 18 tier 2 teams wouldn't be able to play a full round robin but they could play say 12 league phase games (playing all but 5 teams each) before moving forward to a knockout phase for the championship and promotion.

Rugby uses league followed playoffs. Pro 14, Premiership, Super Rugby, Top 14. Rugby league's super league and NRL use playoffs. Aussie rules use playoffs.

Mainly it's soccer than doesn't but most other sports do and you can see why.

Every team gets a good program of games, then you finish the season off with do or die fixtures for the championship."
Every league you have used as an example there are professional where players get paid bonuses for winning games and teams get bonuses for finishing higher up a league. Neither of them are the case in GAA so when teams can no longer progress in a league all interest ends for them. Having teams give walkovers in your main competition is no good for a sport. It doesn't happen now as teams use the league for upcoming championship but you can be certain it would happen if you have a 13 round league as you main event.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2484 - 01/11/2020 21:02:08    2304116

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Replying To Soma:  "Every league you have used as an example there are professional where players get paid bonuses for winning games and teams get bonuses for finishing higher up a league. Neither of them are the case in GAA so when teams can no longer progress in a league all interest ends for them. Having teams give walkovers in your main competition is no good for a sport. It doesn't happen now as teams use the league for upcoming championship but you can be certain it would happen if you have a 13 round league as you main event."
There is plenty of leagues where players are amateur and they continue regardless of whether teams interest in winning/competing for title/promotion is over or not

You are assuming a lot that teams would give walkovers.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1636 - 01/11/2020 21:34:48    2304141

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "I have always thought that the best system would be a summer league overlapped with a seeded knockout championship. The league would probably become the main competition over time which is fine.

The provincial championships could be played in the spring but I don't think it makes any sense to have them as part of the championship any more. They are too unbalanced, particularly in Munster and Leinster. The provincial councils would never allow that of course, but that would be my dream format."
Mine too.

Malonemagic (Laois) - Posts: 668 - 01/11/2020 22:16:35    2304165

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Replying To KillingFields:  "There is plenty of leagues where players are amateur and they continue regardless of whether teams interest in winning/competing for title/promotion is over or not

You are assuming a lot that teams would give walkovers."
Less walkovers if 3rd from bottom had to play a winner takes all with team 3rd from top of lower league.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 276 - 01/11/2020 23:17:29    2304192

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The back door was brought in to help players who trained for 12 months to get more than one game and mainly to keep the stronger teams in it until the business end of the championship. I love provincial championship. Make each province a round Robin with top 2 teams playing the provincial final. Leinster 2 groups with winner of each group playing the final. And then the normal ulster v munster etc everyone gets more games.

ulsterrules (Donegal) - Posts: 191 - 01/11/2020 23:46:01    2304201

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Less walkovers if 3rd from bottom had to play a winner takes all with team 3rd from top of lower league."
That's it. You structure the league correctly and most teams would have something to play for until the final round.

Top 6 to playoffs with top 2 straight to the semifinals would pretty much have teams with 6+ wins from their first 12 rounds with something to play for.

Bottom 2 down plus 1 or even 2 relegation playoff spots would mean teams would probably need a minimum of 4 wins to be staying up.

You get to the last round of fixtures and you're really only talking about teams with around 9-11 points that'd have nothing to play for.

There's already dead rubbers in the last round of the super 8s and the sky hasn't fallen in there.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 02/11/2020 12:31:48    2304367

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