National Forum

Return Of The Championship - Excited ? Not Overly Bothered ?

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Replying To JoeSoap:  "Bit of an odd idea though in all honesty. Like any year really it comes down to the draw. If Tyrone or Donegal go on from our opening match to win the All-Ireland, it'll be as tough a route as any, assuming all the favourites win out the route for Tyrone/Donegal to an All-Ireland title will be:

Donegal/Tyrone > Armagh > Monaghan > Dublin > Kerry.

That's a fair battle to win Sam. Our own route in 2012 was Cavan > Derry > Tyrone > Down > Kerry > Cork > Mayo, the extra two games being the preliminary round and quarter-final.

If Mayo manage to go all the way, again assuming favourites win out, they'll have to beat:

Leitrim > Roscommon > Galway > Kerry > Donegal ;-)

I understand the general point that it's harder to win over more games but really, compared to years gone by the only difference is the loss of the quarter final for the likes of Dublin and Kerry. The Super 8s are relatively new and I'd question the "fairness" of them so far (unsurprisingly as a Donegal man)."
Well in fairness Joe if I was a Donegal man I'd be very upset the way the super 8s fell for Donegal. Last year an unlucky draw and in 2018 the unfairness of the home away neutral games etc. The gaa got that one wrong no doubt but at least this year you don't have to worry about that but with Tyrone this weekend you ll have enough to worry about.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 630 - 28/10/2020 19:15:02    2302607

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Id agree wholly. i think the championship structure unfairly favors Leinster and Munster in a normal year as opposed to Connacht and Munster - i think that unfair every year and increasingly more so this year. In a normal year you have to play a county from almost very province over 8-10 games, this year you dont and to it in some cases with 50% of games.

The championship is equitable most years. Its definitely not equitable this year and because there is about 30%-40% of the games to win this year then a normal, year it dictates its less harder to win it and those the achievement is less.

Its far harder for Connacht and ulster teams to win then Leinster or Munster. Its more an achievement for Donegal to win an All Ireland then Dublin this or most years - pushing an open door here."
This was the year the Gaa had the chance of an open draw and bottled it once again. It was perfect for it.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 630 - 28/10/2020 19:16:59    2302608

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "This was the year the Gaa had the chance of an open draw and bottled it once again. It was perfect for it."
Or it shows within the organisation there is little to no desire for it.
A straight knockout 32 team cup format should only be in place if it is in addition to provincial cups and a main competition which is a league based competition

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1636 - 28/10/2020 19:24:16    2302610

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Id agree wholly. i think the championship structure unfairly favors Leinster and Munster in a normal year as opposed to Connacht and Munster - i think that unfair every year and increasingly more so this year. In a normal year you have to play a county from almost very province over 8-10 games, this year you dont and to it in some cases with 50% of games.

The championship is equitable most years. Its definitely not equitable this year and because there is about 30%-40% of the games to win this year then a normal, year it dictates its less harder to win it and those the achievement is less.

Its far harder for Connacht and ulster teams to win then Leinster or Munster. Its more an achievement for Donegal to win an All Ireland then Dublin this or most years - pushing an open door here."
But is it not the same for all teams? This requirement to win 30-40% of games?
Your argument is flawed, petty & churlish. Reminds me of the fake news rhetoric that was spun & has successfully stuck across the pond.

greysoil (Monaghan) - Posts: 830 - 28/10/2020 19:29:10    2302613

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "This was the year the Gaa had the chance of an open draw and bottled it once again. It was perfect for it."
It wasn't really, when teams were traveling to games by car because of covid. Look at the League games, Donegal travelling to Kerry. Waterford refusing to go Antrim

At least Provincial it's not far for those teams. Talk that the League next year could be changed to a regional bass to restrict travel.

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2216 - 28/10/2020 19:43:19    2302618

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Id agree wholly. i think the championship structure unfairly favors Leinster and Munster in a normal year as opposed to Connacht and Munster - i think that unfair every year and increasingly more so this year. In a normal year you have to play a county from almost very province over 8-10 games, this year you dont and to it in some cases with 50% of games.

The championship is equitable most years. Its definitely not equitable this year and because there is about 30%-40% of the games to win this year then a normal, year it dictates its less harder to win it and those the achievement is less.

Its far harder for Connacht and ulster teams to win then Leinster or Munster. Its more an achievement for Donegal to win an All Ireland then Dublin this or most years - pushing an open door here."
Disagree completely. Dublin will have to play Westmeath and potentially Laois ( two Division 2 teams ) to reach the provincial final. If you are on the right side of the draw in connacht you just have to beat Sligo or London to reach a final. Ulster is a minefield I will agree.

Malonemagic (Laois) - Posts: 668 - 28/10/2020 19:46:20    2302619

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "This was the year the Gaa had the chance of an open draw and bottled it once again. It was perfect for it."
Open draw is not wanted by the GAA because Kerry/Dublin might not always make it to the latter stages

M Lyster (Antrim) - Posts: 421 - 28/10/2020 19:47:06    2302620

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "This was the year the Gaa had the chance of an open draw and bottled it once again. It was perfect for it."
Even if it suits Dublin down to the ground. I think the provincial structure is hugely inequitable Mick. It's much more difficult for an Ulster and Connacht team to currently win an All Ireland. The lad from Donegal was projecting the Donegal draw in the post before essentially they have to play provisionally 5 Division 1 teams to win an All Ireland. Dublin and Kerry if they win their provinces it's two.

I like the traditition of the provinces, but it's getting to inequitable and is based really on a geographical lottery, skewing the sporting integrity of the championship. Every year and especially this as the Donegal example illustrates.

An open draw would be fun. Another idea I like is amalgamating Leinster and Munster and have an A/B championship.

Say Meath, Cork, Clare, Kildare Kerry, Dublin and 1 or two others in A and the rest in B. Maybe demarcate based on Div 1 & 2 in A and B Div 3 & 4. Home and away open draw.

For me you want to compete against the best, whether you win or loose.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3671 - 28/10/2020 19:52:53    2302621

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Replying To M Lyster:  "Open draw is not wanted by the GAA because Kerry/Dublin might not always make it to the latter stages"
It would be interesting to see an open draw. You could see some of the big names exiting the championship early. As long as the provincial system continues, an open draw is not a runner.

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 112 - 28/10/2020 19:55:08    2302622

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Replying To M Lyster:  "Open draw is not wanted by the GAA because Kerry/Dublin might not always make it to the latter stages"
You could be right Lybster. I don't know the answer to that one but I think it was a great time to try it. I know an earlier post was on about the travel but the games could be played at neutral venues roughly midway between the counties.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 630 - 28/10/2020 20:00:37    2302626

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The thing is that this is a very tentative championship, there is a good chance it will not be completed

maroondiesel (Mayo) - Posts: 1042 - 28/10/2020 20:02:57    2302628

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Replying To Fionn:  "Mmmmm.....
Both yourselves and kerry won 2x All Ireland's each without winning your provincial championships - plastic Sam's ;o)

So if this year's rules applied then with one off matches, that would be 2 of your All Ireland's each gone....
The back door saved both your asses in those years....!"
I know but I'm not the one complaining about this years.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 276 - 28/10/2020 20:04:51    2302629

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Id agree wholly. i think the championship structure unfairly favors Leinster and Munster in a normal year as opposed to Connacht and Munster - i think that unfair every year and increasingly more so this year. In a normal year you have to play a county from almost very province over 8-10 games, this year you dont and to it in some cases with 50% of games.

The championship is equitable most years. Its definitely not equitable this year and because there is about 30%-40% of the games to win this year then a normal, year it dictates its less harder to win it and those the achievement is less.

Its far harder for Connacht and ulster teams to win then Leinster or Munster. Its more an achievement for Donegal to win an All Ireland then Dublin this or most years - pushing an open door here."
I'm sorry Username, my point is if Dublin go all the way this year, what is to mark this All-Ireland out as different from one of the last 5, say 2015 for example to skip out the Super 8s?

Potential route 2020:

Westmeath > Laois > Meath > Donegal > Kerry

2015 Route:

Longford > Kildare > Westmeath > Fermanagh > Mayo (replay) > Kerry

So again, all you're missing out is a quarter final fixture. What would make this year less of an achievement than a "normal year" for the Dubs? That was your words, that this year is less of an achievement than a normal year. Is that extra fixture for Dublin against whoever might have survived the qualifiers really making 2015, 2016, 2017 a much better achievement than the 5 games facing you this next while?

JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1125 - 28/10/2020 20:04:51    2302630

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "Well in fairness Joe if I was a Donegal man I'd be very upset the way the super 8s fell for Donegal. Last year an unlucky draw and in 2018 the unfairness of the home away neutral games etc. The gaa got that one wrong no doubt but at least this year you don't have to worry about that but with Tyrone this weekend you ll have enough to worry about."
I was more annoyed by last year personally because the first off day we had all summer was in Castlebar. First year, you would take having a packed house in Ballybofey at the height of summer against absolutely anyone to in order to reach a semi-final, I would take that every single year. Tyrone were just better than us on that day. Last year stung a lot more for me as we had been excellent all year long but then Mayo brought a ferocity that seemed to rattle us completely in that first half and we never got a handle on things after that.

I don't think the Super 8s are a great format personally, the only thing I like about them is bringing huge championship matches to the county grounds. And granted, it did give us Kerry v Donegal last year which was a magic game of football.

JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1125 - 28/10/2020 20:09:29    2302632

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Even if it suits Dublin down to the ground. I think the provincial structure is hugely inequitable Mick. It's much more difficult for an Ulster and Connacht team to currently win an All Ireland. The lad from Donegal was projecting the Donegal draw in the post before essentially they have to play provisionally 5 Division 1 teams to win an All Ireland. Dublin and Kerry if they win their provinces it's two.

I like the traditition of the provinces, but it's getting to inequitable and is based really on a geographical lottery, skewing the sporting integrity of the championship. Every year and especially this as the Donegal example illustrates.

An open draw would be fun. Another idea I like is amalgamating Leinster and Munster and have an A/B championship.

Say Meath, Cork, Clare, Kildare Kerry, Dublin and 1 or two others in A and the rest in B. Maybe demarcate based on Div 1 & 2 in A and B Div 3 & 4. Home and away open draw.

For me you want to compete against the best, whether you win or loose."
I agree with you Username. The provincial are an unfair system especially for Ulster which is such a minefield. Yes I like the tradition but since the backdoor itss not as important anyway. Anyway the hurling has made a mockery of the provincial system I.e the leinster hurling championship that has Galway in it and both Antrim and Kerry played in it also. In Football a fairer system is needed and the weaker teams also should be looked after better.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 630 - 28/10/2020 20:48:47    2302646

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This brilliant video on Ryan McHugh has got me excited for Sunday link

SlipperyDodger (Cork) - Posts: 93 - 28/10/2020 20:52:43    2302651

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Replying To Fionn:  "Mmmmm.....
Both yourselves and kerry won 2x All Ireland's each without winning your provincial championships - plastic Sam's ;o)

So if this year's rules applied then with one off matches, that would be 2 of your All Ireland's each gone....
The back door saved both your asses in those years....!"
When there is a back door there s a safety net so a team might not go as hard as usual especially taking chances on injuries etc. OF course I'd prefer to win through main route but Im happy to win whatever way the rules allow. Would you not Fionn? Tipp won hurling titles through back door Galway football O1 Tyrone 05 08 Kerry 06 09 and Cork 10.Do you think they all consider the victories plastic. I think not. I'm sure if Dublin had been beaten by Kildare in 11(and very nearly were may I add) that you would have been still over the moon winning Sam in September. Also Fionn if Dublin hurlers come through back door and win an all ireland will you not recognise it? Only you know the answer to that.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 630 - 28/10/2020 21:06:16    2302660

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "When there is a back door there s a safety net so a team might not go as hard as usual especially taking chances on injuries etc. OF course I'd prefer to win through main route but Im happy to win whatever way the rules allow. Would you not Fionn? Tipp won hurling titles through back door Galway football O1 Tyrone 05 08 Kerry 06 09 and Cork 10.Do you think they all consider the victories plastic. I think not. I'm sure if Dublin had been beaten by Kildare in 11(and very nearly were may I add) that you would have been still over the moon winning Sam in September. Also Fionn if Dublin hurlers come through back door and win an all ireland will you not recognise it? Only you know the answer to that."
Not saying we should have beat them in 2011 but by jaysus we deserved a second bite. That free was a joke.

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 7772 - 28/10/2020 22:03:06    2302674

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Replying To JoeSoap:  "I'm sorry Username, my point is if Dublin go all the way this year, what is to mark this All-Ireland out as different from one of the last 5, say 2015 for example to skip out the Super 8s?

Potential route 2020:

Westmeath > Laois > Meath > Donegal > Kerry

2015 Route:

Longford > Kildare > Westmeath > Fermanagh > Mayo (replay) > Kerry

So again, all you're missing out is a quarter final fixture. What would make this year less of an achievement than a "normal year" for the Dubs? That was your words, that this year is less of an achievement than a normal year. Is that extra fixture for Dublin against whoever might have survived the qualifiers really making 2015, 2016, 2017 a much better achievement than the 5 games facing you this next while?"
Personally for me Joe winning it this year would definitely be less of achievement then 2015. That's looking at it individually and not looking at say chaining a six cumulatively.

I also think the championships we won in 18/19 going through the S8s are greater achievements in 15/16/17.

I know you picked 15 to throw Fermanagh in there to illustrate (as there are far tougher years) but I thought they were brilliant that year, they even rattled us in Croker and their fans were great. I loved 15, WM were great craic as well in Leinster, the games against Mayo were so much fun, the final was a grind but they often are.

Definitely 7 games to win an All Ireland, playing a county from every province, Vs 5 games with about 60% vs Leinster teams, 15 every day.

I'd have 11, 13, 15, 16,17, 18, 19 as greater achievements then if we won it this year personally.

I think it's by far a bigger achievement if Donegal or Tyrone win it this year then say Dublin.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3671 - 28/10/2020 22:03:35    2302675

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "When there is a back door there s a safety net so a team might not go as hard as usual especially taking chances on injuries etc. OF course I'd prefer to win through main route but Im happy to win whatever way the rules allow. Would you not Fionn? Tipp won hurling titles through back door Galway football O1 Tyrone 05 08 Kerry 06 09 and Cork 10.Do you think they all consider the victories plastic. I think not. I'm sure if Dublin had been beaten by Kildare in 11(and very nearly were may I add) that you would have been still over the moon winning Sam in September. Also Fionn if Dublin hurlers come through back door and win an all ireland will you not recognise it? Only you know the answer to that."
Like I said earlier - very tetchy these days and true colours coming out. ;-)

Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 3309 - 28/10/2020 22:33:36    2302684

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