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Replying To MesAmis: "I think it is incredibly naive to believe that in 2020 none of those waving Confederate flags at Cork games don't know what that flag represents.
If this was the 1970s you'd have a point but it's 2020." Represents to WHO? You or them?
Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 1082 - 13/06/2020 16:53:59
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Replying To MesAmis: "I think it is incredibly naive to believe that in 2020 none of those waving Confederate flags at Cork games don't know what that flag represents.
If this was the 1970s you'd have a point but it's 2020." If you refuse to engage with simple questions Mes in a scramble for the higher ground, then we can't have a reasoned debate.
Choice is yours.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 13/06/2020 16:54:56
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Replying To Htaem: "Just don't agree with the current wave of banning things Breezy, it's the woke agenda if you like.
Live and let live." You were doing so well until that last bit.
Then you just became another God damn hippy.
catch22 (USA) - Posts: 1647 - 13/06/2020 17:22:43
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Replying To Htaem: "It represents the Cork Gaa suppprters who wish to wave it and again I make the point they are waving it in support of their county, unless you think otherwise?
Interesting you should mention the swastika, the Nazi's didn't invent that symbol you know, apparently it had been been around for thousands of years and represented good fortune. But the Nazi's adopted it and re-invented it for themselves.
So symbols can be adopted and re-invented to represent different things, a very evil symbol in the case of Nazi Germany.
Also, I'm open to correction on this but I believe the swastika is still in use today in certain eastern religious cultures (eg Buddhists & Hindus etc) with no association to the Nazi's whatsoever. Should they be banned from using it even though it means something completely different to them?" 100% agree with you, I read that about the swastika as well, it's been a symbol of good luck and fortune in many cultures. So the Nazis use it and all of a sudden its an evil symbol.
So if a good symbol like the swastika can be adapted to be something bad, can the reverse be done also like the Cork supporters using the confederate flag to wave on their gaa teams ?
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11732 - 13/06/2020 17:27:22
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Those poor people at those matches will probably be traumatised for the rest of their lives. How inconsiderate of those dreadful people. There must be some way for them to claim against the GAA for the trauma suffered.
What a load of horsesh1te.
I'm offended even posting this.
catch22 (USA) - Posts: 1647 - 13/06/2020 17:29:14
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Replying To Trump2020: "Represents to WHO? You or them?" It represents the Confederacy.
I'm not making up anything here or moving the goalposts.
The Confederate flag represents the Confederacy.
You can say it represents something else as to other people as much as you want but you can't change what the flag represented in 1860 and has continued to represent until today.
Do as much mental gymnastics and whataboutery as you want to and moaning about Liberal snowfalkes but you can't change what the flag represents.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 13/06/2020 17:44:44
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Replying To Htaem: "If you refuse to engage with simple questions Mes in a scramble for the higher ground, then we can't have a reasoned debate.
Choice is yours." I've answered your question.
It is perfectly logical to presume that anyone flying the Confederate flag in 2020 knows what it represents and has decided that they are fine with being associated with that.
There's a lot of trying to whitewash the history of flag here and pretend it doesn't represent what it represents which I think says a lot.
People are uncomfortable with defending a white supremacist pro-slavery flag so they'll pretend it isn't a white supremacist pro-slavery flag or that someone attaching some sort of vague other meaning to the flag means it stops being a white supremacist pro-slavery flag but it doesn't.
As much as you'd like it not to be, it is a white supremacist pro-slavery flag.
Yous might all be right about all the other stuff the Loony Liberal lefties are trying to ban but you're immediate reaction of going against the snowflakes means yous have put yourselves in the corner of defending flying a white supremacist pro-slavery flag.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 13/06/2020 17:52:16
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Replying To Whammo86: "Ok, those are all fair points and I very much agree with the spirit of things.
My perception of the rioting has been for the most part it's been an attempt at real peaceful protest of police brutality and systematic racism.
There are elements who have jumped on the bandwagon to push their own agendas or to use it as an excuse to embark on a bout of anti social behaviour.
I don't feel it should take away from the message of the protests, that racism is alive and well in the world and that we've a responsibility to challenge it.
People/organisations all have an interpretation of how they should do that best in their own lives. Their answers will be imperfect, their will be rightful disagreement but that trying to improve society is a good thing and it won't be done perfectly but it is better than not being attempted at all.
To try to get it back on topic though. It's very hard to argue that there's a good reason to allow Confederate battle flags into GAA grounds. If ones only reason to do so is to not to cede ground in the culture war then I think there are priorities seriously out of line." Whammo iv a serious question for you, would you get upset if you saw Cork fans waving the old USSR flag with the hammer and sickle? Or if you saw Laois or Waterford fans waving Israeli flag?
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11732 - 13/06/2020 17:59:45
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "100% agree with you, I read that about the swastika as well, it's been a symbol of good luck and fortune in many cultures. So the Nazis use it and all of a sudden its an evil symbol.
So if a good symbol like the swastika can be adapted to be something bad, can the reverse be done also like the Cork supporters using the confederate flag to wave on their gaa teams ?" That's exactly what I was thinking, apparently you can only turn a good symbol bad but you can't turn a bad symbol good.
Anyway signs, symbols and flags etc mean a lot of different things to different people and I accept that fact, others don't. They stick one tag on it and that's it forever apparently.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 13/06/2020 18:13:05
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Replying To Htaem: "The Gaa is open to all and to be honest I don't think the waving of a Confederate flag at Cork intercounty games is going to stop black people from playing Gaa.
btw if you're serious about being PC isn't the term 'black people' also racist these days, aren't we supposed to say 'people of colour' now.....that is until that term also becomes 'racist', which it probably will do in a few years judging by present form.
Anyway my reason for not supporting the ban isn't simply because "what next", my reason for opposing the ban is because I don't believe those who are waving the confederate flag are doing anything other than supporting their county, they are not waving it in support of slavery.
I also don't like power hungry pressure groups with agendas dictating to me, be it the catholic church nor the far left PC brigade, I believe in live and let live." No it's still black which is why they call it the BAME community or BAME societies and whatnot
Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 13/06/2020 18:31:43
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Replying To MesAmis: "I've answered your question.
It is perfectly logical to presume that anyone flying the Confederate flag in 2020 knows what it represents and has decided that they are fine with being associated with that.
There's a lot of trying to whitewash the history of flag here and pretend it doesn't represent what it represents which I think says a lot.
People are uncomfortable with defending a white supremacist pro-slavery flag so they'll pretend it isn't a white supremacist pro-slavery flag or that someone attaching some sort of vague other meaning to the flag means it stops being a white supremacist pro-slavery flag but it doesn't.
As much as you'd like it not to be, it is a white supremacist pro-slavery flag.
Yous might all be right about all the other stuff the Loony Liberal lefties are trying to ban but you're immediate reaction of going against the snowflakes means yous have put yourselves in the corner of defending flying a white supremacist pro-slavery flag." You haven't answered this important question though:
Do you believe people who wave the confederate flag at Cork games are likely to be supporters of slavery or supporters of Cork, what do you think?
Nobody is trying to whitewash history, that flag was used by many people who fought for the confederacy, I don't think anybody here has tried to deny that. However the confederacy has been gone for over 150 years and thankfully it's not coming back, but are you suggesting that a flag/symbol can never ever hold a different meaning to someone under any circumstances? because if you are I simply disagree.
It doesn't change what it meant to soldiers who fought for the south in 1863, but it is possible to mean something completely different to a Cork fan in 2020, who I would suggest is not supporting slavery.
Also plenty more flags could be just as easily "problematic" and deserving of a ban if you look at them through a dogmatically negative lens (eg the UK flag).
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 13/06/2020 18:32:43
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "Whammo iv a serious question for you, would you get upset if you saw Cork fans waving the old USSR flag with the hammer and sickle? Or if you saw Laois or Waterford fans waving Israeli flag?" I'll be honest I don't really think there's a good need for those flags in GAA grounds either.
The Israeli flag though is a very contentious issue though.
I myself personally would find what is perpetuated by the Israeli government to the Palestinian people to be as close to apartheid as you can get. I do think though that the pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionism movements have plenty of people who are not just anti-Zionists but also anti-semites. I can understand why someone of a Jewish background would be concerned if there were to be a ban on the Israeli flag. You're starting to get into really some difficult questions there that I'll be honest I don't have the answers to.
The confederate flag is more clear cut in my mind.
I agree with Htaem that depending on context flags and symbols can have different meaning.
Where I would disagree is that when it comes to the topic of slavery it is so abhorrent that it shouldn't be taken complacently. The equivalence of the confederate flag at Cork games and Swastikas in Eastern cultures. For a start the history of the use of the Swastika predates that of its adoption by the Nazis.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 13/06/2020 18:44:21
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Replying To MesAmis: "I've answered your question.
It is perfectly logical to presume that anyone flying the Confederate flag in 2020 knows what it represents and has decided that they are fine with being associated with that.
There's a lot of trying to whitewash the history of flag here and pretend it doesn't represent what it represents which I think says a lot.
People are uncomfortable with defending a white supremacist pro-slavery flag so they'll pretend it isn't a white supremacist pro-slavery flag or that someone attaching some sort of vague other meaning to the flag means it stops being a white supremacist pro-slavery flag but it doesn't.
As much as you'd like it not to be, it is a white supremacist pro-slavery flag.
Yous might all be right about all the other stuff the Loony Liberal lefties are trying to ban but you're immediate reaction of going against the snowflakes means yous have put yourselves in the corner of defending flying a white supremacist pro-slavery flag." "It is perfectly logical to presume"
That statement is a contradiction in terms. You cannot 'presume' if you are being 'logical'.
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1115 - 13/06/2020 18:49:59
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I love all the people moaning about snowflakes getting upset about a flag and saying its just a flag.
This coming from an island that has a permanently sitting Flag Commission because everyone was getting so bothered about flags. I et some on here wouldnt be long changing their tune in some lads from a blue county brought union jacks
Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 13/06/2020 19:01:25
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: ""It is perfectly logical to presume"
That statement is a contradiction in terms. You cannot 'presume' if you are being 'logical'." It's perfectly logical to infer then.
Thanks múinteoir.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 13/06/2020 19:13:58
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Replying To Trump2020: "It's very dangerous when someone likes you tries to control the narrative. You would really do yourself a favor by actually learning something about that Flag and the Civil War itself instead of painting yourself into a very narrow box. At the height of slavery in the South only 2-3% owned slaves and I already pointed out that some of the Northern Generals did too so I'd say the vast majority of Southerners were not fighting for slavery that they didn't even participate in. Slavery was on its way out in the Western Hemisphere as seen in Brazil and other countries. Even without the Civil War slavery would have been eradicated in the USA. George Washington the First US President owned slaves and his picture is still on the US Dollar." Just reading through the comments and agree with yours.
Ken Burns 9 part 1990 series on the Civil War is excellent. With brilliant contributions on the Southern cause by Shelby Foote.
We can be very subjective in how we treat history and individuals. Abraham Lincoln is the common man's anti racist hero. However he liberated coloured people in a very politically opportune way. He believed a black man wasn't the equal of a white man. He didn't offer universal suffrage to freed slaves.
History is complexed, and pardon the reference, not a black and white issue. It's much more nuanced, looking at certain viewpoints from today's viewpoint is anachronistic.
We like to think we, the Irish were/are a tolerant people. However in the 1840s and 1850s in New Orleans and across the US the Irish gangs fought black gangs for work and dwellings. They were seen as the lowest two ethnicities arriving in America. But when Irish gangs beat up black gangs a blind eye was turned..why, because they were white. None of this is right but it happened.
Unfortunately Mitchell's views were held by many. And to the Lords in Westminster we Irish were depicted as apes in Punch and other publications. This was 1800s and other centuries thinking.
20 years ago working in a midlands town a work colleague, a lady, said to me the classic 'I'm not racist, but I'd never let a black doctor near me'!. I held my fire because she wasn't worth arguing with. But attitudes like that were commonplace up to recently.
Where do I stand on the confederate flag at GAA matches? I honestly don't know. But until I had a group of coloured people say look we have a problem with this, I wouldn't be getting offended on their behalf. These decisions shouldn't be made unilaterally by busy bodies who lack the education to make such decisions.
CC2020 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 46 - 13/06/2020 19:20:10
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Replying To Htaem: "You haven't answered this important question though:
Do you believe people who wave the confederate flag at Cork games are likely to be supporters of slavery or supporters of Cork, what do you think?
Nobody is trying to whitewash history, that flag was used by many people who fought for the confederacy, I don't think anybody here has tried to deny that. However the confederacy has been gone for over 150 years and thankfully it's not coming back, but are you suggesting that a flag/symbol can never ever hold a different meaning to someone under any circumstances? because if you are I simply disagree.
It doesn't change what it meant to soldiers who fought for the south in 1863, but it is possible to mean something completely different to a Cork fan in 2020, who I would suggest is not supporting slavery.
Also plenty more flags could be just as easily "problematic" and deserving of a ban if you look at them through a dogmatically negative lens (eg the UK flag)." I have answered the question, twice but here is it for a third time.
I would assume that anyone waving a Confederate flag in 2020 knows what that flag represents and are happy to be associated with what that flag represents.
That's a perfectly reasonable and logical response to seeing someone with a Confederate flag.
Out of all the red and white options they went out of their way, in 2020, to pick the one that represents white supremacy and is pro-slavery.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 13/06/2020 19:21:16
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Replying To MesAmis: " Replying To Htaem: "You haven't answered this important question though:
Do you believe people who wave the confederate flag at Cork games are likely to be supporters of slavery or supporters of Cork, what do you think?
Nobody is trying to whitewash history, that flag was used by many people who fought for the confederacy, I don't think anybody here has tried to deny that. However the confederacy has been gone for over 150 years and thankfully it's not coming back, but are you suggesting that a flag/symbol can never ever hold a different meaning to someone under any circumstances? because if you are I simply disagree.
It doesn't change what it meant to soldiers who fought for the south in 1863, but it is possible to mean something completely different to a Cork fan in 2020, who I would suggest is not supporting slavery.
Also plenty more flags could be just as easily "problematic" and deserving of a ban if you look at them through a dogmatically negative lens (eg the UK flag)." I have answered the question, twice but here is it for a third time. I would assume that anyone waving a Confederate flag in 2020 knows what that flag represents and are happy to be associated with what that flag represents. That's a perfectly reasonable and logical response to seeing someone with a Confederate flag. Out of all the red and white options they went out of their way, in 2020, to pick the one that represents white supremacy and is pro-slavery."
All the best man.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 13/06/2020 19:50:51
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No place for the confederate flag at games here.
And no place either for Palestinian flags at GAA matches. I always find displays of either of these completely out of place.
greysoil (Monaghan) - Posts: 830 - 13/06/2020 20:04:27
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Replying To MesAmis: " Replying To Htaem: "You haven't answered this important question though:
Do you believe people who wave the confederate flag at Cork games are likely to be supporters of slavery or supporters of Cork, what do you think?
Nobody is trying to whitewash history, that flag was used by many people who fought for the confederacy, I don't think anybody here has tried to deny that. However the confederacy has been gone for over 150 years and thankfully it's not coming back, but are you suggesting that a flag/symbol can never ever hold a different meaning to someone under any circumstances? because if you are I simply disagree.
It doesn't change what it meant to soldiers who fought for the south in 1863, but it is possible to mean something completely different to a Cork fan in 2020, who I would suggest is not supporting slavery.
Also plenty more flags could be just as easily "problematic" and deserving of a ban if you look at them through a dogmatically negative lens (eg the UK flag)." I have answered the question, twice but here is it for a third time. I would assume that anyone waving a Confederate flag in 2020 knows what that flag represents and are happy to be associated with what that flag represents. That's a perfectly reasonable and logical response to seeing someone with a Confederate flag. Out of all the red and white options they went out of their way, in 2020, to pick the one that represents white supremacy and is pro-slavery."
That's a perfectly reasonable and logical response to seeing someone with a Confederate flag....Out of all the red and white options they went out of their way, in 2020, to pick the one that represents white supremacy and is pro-slavery."
So it's 'perfectly reasonable and logical' to 'assume' that all Cork supporters who wave a Confederate flag are white supremacists and pro slavery?
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1115 - 13/06/2020 20:14:03
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