National Forum

Should The Rebel Flag Be Banned At Cork Matches?

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Replying To Superglue:  "Disliking racism and it's symbols isn't a woke thing. Sure there are 'pc gone mad' things going on these days but Mitchell and the flag definitely aint two of them.

Don't think 'maturing as a nation' will get much air if the RIC/Black and Tans commemoration is anything to go by.
Maybe we should commemorate them if we are ok with commemorating racists?"
If you want to commemorate the RIC/Tans you can do it in Kerry. Not in Dublin or Cork or Galway.

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 1927 - 16/06/2020 09:12:03    2280999

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Replying To Superglue:  "Kinda hard for people to complain about something before they were made aware of it.
Rename the clubs to Young Irelanders. That way it commemorates when Mitchell seemed sound"
Ah, but then you're commemorating the men of violence. What about the feelings of the descendants of the people they attacked? And on and on we go.

Personally, if these clubs absolutely must be renamed (entirely up to their membership, of course) then they could do worse than considering James Daly, "the forgotten man of Irish history".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Daly_(activist)

But then, someone will probably pin the Land War on him and he will also become unacceptable.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1803 - 16/06/2020 09:18:56    2281001

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Replying To arock:  "A very good point a rename to Young Islanders is a very good substitute."
'One man's freedom fighter is another mans terrorist'. Some memorials will be contentious either in their retention or dismantlement.

Oldertourman (Limerick) - Posts: 162 - 16/06/2020 10:04:57    2281004

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Replying To Gleebo:  "I imagine there are millions of people walking round Ireland who get terribly upset at the idea of the Cork fans waving a flag right enough. Do you have any data to support your contention that it causes such widespread offence in Ireland? Like a poll, perhaps?

Actually, don't bother. I've had enough arguments over the years with woke types to realize that they tend to put feelings, real or imagined, over data anyway.

You and I are obviously poles apart on this and quite frankly, I've little desire to engage in a further dialogue of the deaf."
You really shouldn't need to resort to lazy clichéd labelling in this discussion. We are having a discussion in which we disagree on this one issue. Ascribing labels such as woke when you know nothing of my views on anything else is all on you and in your head.

You have repeatedly said that the Dublin crest should be treated the same as the Confederate flag. I have asked you to back up your argument that Viking insignia causes widespread offence in Ireland and around the world. You have but done this and you are the one places imagined people's feelings on a par with the real feelings of real people who are descended from African slaves.

What is it about people descended from African slaves that you think their feelings are only on a par with the feelings of made up non existent people in your opinion?

The Confederate flag causes offence around the world, including in Ireland, that is true. You know its true, as it represents pro-slavery and white supremacy.

Cork GAA have made the perfectly reasonable decision that they would rather not be associated with a flag that represents pro slavery and white supremacy. It really is that simple. You can shift the goalposts and say 'what about this and what about that' but in the end it comes back to Cork GAA not wanting to be associated with pro-slavery and white supremacy.

We can discuss why you and others disagree that Cork should not want to be associated with pro-slavery and white supremacy or we can whitewash history and ignore racism in the world and Ireland.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 16/06/2020 10:48:01    2281007

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Replying To Gleebo:  "Ah, but then you're commemorating the men of violence. What about the feelings of the descendants of the people they attacked? And on and on we go.

Personally, if these clubs absolutely must be renamed (entirely up to their membership, of course) then they could do worse than considering James Daly, "the forgotten man of Irish history".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Daly_(activist)

But then, someone will probably pin the Land War on him and he will also become unacceptable."
I'd say you were one of the lads who opposed the smoking ban cos the next thing to go would be the drink.
You can make a whataboutery case for everything so not much point in continuing this.

Superglue (Kerry) - Posts: 1283 - 16/06/2020 11:10:30    2281012

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Replying To MesAmis:  "You really shouldn't need to resort to lazy clichéd labelling in this discussion. We are having a discussion in which we disagree on this one issue. Ascribing labels such as woke when you know nothing of my views on anything else is all on you and in your head.

You have repeatedly said that the Dublin crest should be treated the same as the Confederate flag. I have asked you to back up your argument that Viking insignia causes widespread offence in Ireland and around the world. You have but done this and you are the one places imagined people's feelings on a par with the real feelings of real people who are descended from African slaves.

What is it about people descended from African slaves that you think their feelings are only on a par with the feelings of made up non existent people in your opinion?

The Confederate flag causes offence around the world, including in Ireland, that is true. You know its true, as it represents pro-slavery and white supremacy.

Cork GAA have made the perfectly reasonable decision that they would rather not be associated with a flag that represents pro slavery and white supremacy. It really is that simple. You can shift the goalposts and say 'what about this and what about that' but in the end it comes back to Cork GAA not wanting to be associated with pro-slavery and white supremacy.

We can discuss why you and others disagree that Cork should not want to be associated with pro-slavery and white supremacy or we can whitewash history and ignore racism in the world and Ireland."
Ah yes, the "you don't agree with me therefore you must be a racist" implication. I wondered how long that would take you...

And you talk about "lazy clichéd labelling", LOL. Irony isn't your strong point, evidently.

The point of my viking analogy was to draw attention to some of the selectivity around this issue. You want the confederate flag gone because it has connotations with slavery, that is a defensible position to take. To me, it seems logical that if slavery is indefensible (and it is) then we as a society (democratically) should take a similar stance on any symbols that venerate it. All duck or no dinner. You don't, seemingly because it happened so long ago that no-one is around to complain about it.

But then, you've also dodged several examples of things we would also have to ban if we took a similar line on other "problematic" symbols and names ( e.g. celtic crosses, the names of hundreds of GAA clubs etc.), so maybe I'm expecting too much.

I very much doubt that this will be the end of the cancel culture by any means.

You keep referring to the feelings of African/ African descended people who may be offended by that flag or on John Mitchell. Have we actually asked them what they think? I see few quoted in the Irish media coverage of this issue, most of the people exercised about this seem to be white Irish people, on the available evidence. I've seen several interviews recently with several GAA players from minority backgrounds on their experiences of racism, and I can't remember any of them citing this among their concerns. Racial abuse featured prominently, though.

So, to answer your question: I'll take the concerns of African people (or Irish people of African origin) on this issue into account when they raise them. I haven't seen any great campaigning or groundswell of opinion on this from that segment of the Irish population so far, but maybe it will come. I have also yet to see anyone from the "descended from African slaves" community weighing in on this either, but perhaps this is to be expected given that the vast majority of them would be unaware of the GAA's existence.

I certainly put less store in the opinions of those who get offended on their behalf, that's for sure.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1803 - 16/06/2020 12:35:39    2281018

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Replying To Superglue:  "I'd say you were one of the lads who opposed the smoking ban cos the next thing to go would be the drink.
You can make a whataboutery case for everything so not much point in continuing this."
Nope, I neither drink nor smoke, so it's not really relevant to me. Though come to think of it, a lot of pubs have closed down since the smoking ban was introduced...

All I'm saying in the last post is: if you're renaming something on the basis that the original name is historically problematic, then it makes sense to go with a new name that isn't. The woke crowd may well object to Young Irelands on the basis of (real or imagined) offence being given to the Unionist community, giving you a similar problem to the original name.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1803 - 16/06/2020 12:50:57    2281022

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Replying To Oldertourman:  "'One man's freedom fighter is another mans terrorist'. Some memorials will be contentious either in their retention or dismantlement."
I agree, but this man was not just part of the confederacy he was ardently pro-slavery. Even amongst the Confederates he was regarded as extreme. All the good he did was surely undone by his involvement with the cause of pro-slavery. On the issue of the clubs ultimately it is up to them to decide what to call there clubs. But they doing so know in the full knowledge of what this man stood for and ditto with the Flag.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4434 - 16/06/2020 12:53:01    2281023

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Shouldn't need to be banned, if supporters had some cop on. Imagine showing up in Croke Park and hundreds of tourists, some African-American, etc, waving your Confederate flag? Are people still that stupid?

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 864 - 16/06/2020 12:53:02    2281024

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Replying To Gleebo:  "Ah yes, the "you don't agree with me therefore you must be a racist" implication. I wondered how long that would take you...

And you talk about "lazy clichéd labelling", LOL. Irony isn't your strong point, evidently.

The point of my viking analogy was to draw attention to some of the selectivity around this issue. You want the confederate flag gone because it has connotations with slavery, that is a defensible position to take. To me, it seems logical that if slavery is indefensible (and it is) then we as a society (democratically) should take a similar stance on any symbols that venerate it. All duck or no dinner. You don't, seemingly because it happened so long ago that no-one is around to complain about it.

But then, you've also dodged several examples of things we would also have to ban if we took a similar line on other "problematic" symbols and names ( e.g. celtic crosses, the names of hundreds of GAA clubs etc.), so maybe I'm expecting too much.

I very much doubt that this will be the end of the cancel culture by any means.

You keep referring to the feelings of African/ African descended people who may be offended by that flag or on John Mitchell. Have we actually asked them what they think? I see few quoted in the Irish media coverage of this issue, most of the people exercised about this seem to be white Irish people, on the available evidence. I've seen several interviews recently with several GAA players from minority backgrounds on their experiences of racism, and I can't remember any of them citing this among their concerns. Racial abuse featured prominently, though.

So, to answer your question: I'll take the concerns of African people (or Irish people of African origin) on this issue into account when they raise them. I haven't seen any great campaigning or groundswell of opinion on this from that segment of the Irish population so far, but maybe it will come. I have also yet to see anyone from the "descended from African slaves" community weighing in on this either, but perhaps this is to be expected given that the vast majority of them would be unaware of the GAA's existence.

I certainly put less store in the opinions of those who get offended on their behalf, that's for sure."
I haven't labelled you anything. I've just asked you some questions based on things you have posted. Like how you seem to equate the feelings of non-existent people with the real feelings and discrimination felt by real people. I don't understand how you could do that so I have asked for an explanation, that's how we have discussions. You make an assertion and then you back it up. That's up to you to do, I can't label you one thing or another until you give me your reasons for equating the feelings of non-existent people to those real feelings of real people.

I don't get the indignation about being asked to explain your views.

So I take it you understand that people have issue with a white supremacist pro-slavery flag? And you understand why they would have a problem with a white supremacist pro-slavery flying at a sporting event?

So in an increasingly multi-cultural Ireland, one in which the GAA hopes to play a leading role as an inclusive organisation, we have to wait until we're called out on the flying of white supremacist pro-slavery flags at GAA grounds before we do something about it? That's genuinely mind boggling - "we know that this is wrong but we're going to keep doing it until them there complain about it and even then we'll just call them a load of PC snowflakes for awhile before eventually doing the right thing".

You don't think there could be a link between the acceptance of flags or emblems that have racist connotations and incidents of racism? If that's your opinion then fine but I think it is an incredibly naive opinion.

Can you not see how Cork GAA might want to portray itself as the inclusive organisation it undoubtedly is? Is that such an offensive thing for them to do in your opinion?

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 16/06/2020 13:05:38    2281028

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Replying To Gleebo:  "Nope, I neither drink nor smoke, so it's not really relevant to me. Though come to think of it, a lot of pubs have closed down since the smoking ban was introduced...

All I'm saying in the last post is: if you're renaming something on the basis that the original name is historically problematic, then it makes sense to go with a new name that isn't. The woke crowd may well object to Young Irelands on the basis of (real or imagined) offence being given to the Unionist community, giving you a similar problem to the original name."
Better the woke crowd object than the racist crowd get their way

Superglue (Kerry) - Posts: 1283 - 16/06/2020 13:29:12    2281031

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Replying To Gleebo:  "Nope, I neither drink nor smoke, so it's not really relevant to me. Though come to think of it, a lot of pubs have closed down since the smoking ban was introduced...

All I'm saying in the last post is: if you're renaming something on the basis that the original name is historically problematic, then it makes sense to go with a new name that isn't. The woke crowd may well object to Young Irelands on the basis of (real or imagined) offence being given to the Unionist community, giving you a similar problem to the original name."
Lots of pubs have closed since the smoking ban was introduced but it's not really true that it's because of that.
Dont know why you're saying that as far more issues at fault than that
As for rest of your post. Just wrong.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1636 - 16/06/2020 13:46:03    2281032

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "Shouldn't need to be banned, if supporters had some cop on. Imagine showing up in Croke Park and hundreds of tourists, some African-American, etc, waving your Confederate flag? Are people still that stupid?"
Its fairly clear based on this forum, they are.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 982 - 16/06/2020 13:59:56    2281033

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Replying To MesAmis:  "I haven't labelled you anything. I've just asked you some questions based on things you have posted. Like how you seem to equate the feelings of non-existent people with the real feelings and discrimination felt by real people. I don't understand how you could do that so I have asked for an explanation, that's how we have discussions. You make an assertion and then you back it up. That's up to you to do, I can't label you one thing or another until you give me your reasons for equating the feelings of non-existent people to those real feelings of real people.

I don't get the indignation about being asked to explain your views.

So I take it you understand that people have issue with a white supremacist pro-slavery flag? And you understand why they would have a problem with a white supremacist pro-slavery flying at a sporting event?

So in an increasingly multi-cultural Ireland, one in which the GAA hopes to play a leading role as an inclusive organisation, we have to wait until we're called out on the flying of white supremacist pro-slavery flags at GAA grounds before we do something about it? That's genuinely mind boggling - "we know that this is wrong but we're going to keep doing it until them there complain about it and even then we'll just call them a load of PC snowflakes for awhile before eventually doing the right thing".

You don't think there could be a link between the acceptance of flags or emblems that have racist connotations and incidents of racism? If that's your opinion then fine but I think it is an incredibly naive opinion.

Can you not see how Cork GAA might want to portray itself as the inclusive organisation it undoubtedly is? Is that such an offensive thing for them to do in your opinion?"
I've explained my views, you've chosen to dodge anything that is inconvenient to your narrative. And please, I find it very hard to believe that you don't know how the repeated "why don't you value the feelings of descendents of African slaves" type questions could be taken up.

Cork GAA has a very good recent history of playing a lot of hurlers and footballers from various minority backgrounds, that's already inclusive. There's no need to pander to the permanently offended brigade; as I've pointed out, it's not even been demonstrated that they represent anyone in the GAA, or indeed in minority communities in Ireland.

In any case, it seems that most Cork fans want the flag to stay, but sure why would you care about their feelings?

https://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232341&page=60

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1803 - 16/06/2020 14:17:24    2281035

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Replying To Gleebo:  "I've explained my views, you've chosen to dodge anything that is inconvenient to your narrative. And please, I find it very hard to believe that you don't know how the repeated "why don't you value the feelings of descendents of African slaves" type questions could be taken up.

Cork GAA has a very good recent history of playing a lot of hurlers and footballers from various minority backgrounds, that's already inclusive. There's no need to pander to the permanently offended brigade; as I've pointed out, it's not even been demonstrated that they represent anyone in the GAA, or indeed in minority communities in Ireland.

In any case, it seems that most Cork fans want the flag to stay, but sure why would you care about their feelings?

https://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232341&page=60"
Imagine if a minority community asked for the flag to be removed. How do you think that conversation would go.

Also, people who are offended by racism aren't the permanently offended.
Just like those who are defending Mitchell and the flag aren't racist.....or are they?

Superglue (Kerry) - Posts: 1283 - 16/06/2020 14:27:20    2281036

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Replying To Superglue:  "Better the woke crowd object than the racist crowd get their way"
I hate when the woke crowd or the racists get their way, both are despicable.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 16/06/2020 14:34:30    2281037

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Replying To Gleebo:  "I've explained my views, you've chosen to dodge anything that is inconvenient to your narrative. And please, I find it very hard to believe that you don't know how the repeated "why don't you value the feelings of descendents of African slaves" type questions could be taken up.

Cork GAA has a very good recent history of playing a lot of hurlers and footballers from various minority backgrounds, that's already inclusive. There's no need to pander to the permanently offended brigade; as I've pointed out, it's not even been demonstrated that they represent anyone in the GAA, or indeed in minority communities in Ireland.

In any case, it seems that most Cork fans want the flag to stay, but sure why would you care about their feelings?

https://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232341&page=60"
I haven't dodged anything. My point has remained clear throughout.

I've repeatedly asked you to explain why you equate the feelings of non-existent people with the real feelings of real people. You're the one that is saying that they are the same thing, not me, it's up to you to answer why, as you've asserted, that the made up feelings of made up people are as important to you as the real feelings of real people. I've put no words in your mouth, that is your stated position on this, I don't think it is unreasonable to seek an explanation.

So the majority of Cork fans on one internet forum means that Cork GAA shouldn't ban a flag that represents pro slavery and white supremacy? That's that then?

I'm not pandering to anyone, I have the ability to make up my own mind on an issue. Not get bogged down into some sort of 'culture wars' narrative about 'the woke crowd' and 'cancel culture' like you seem to be.

This isn't about anything other than whether or not Cork GAA want to be associated with a flag that represents pro-slavery and white supremacy.

My very simple point is that I think that Cork not wanting to be associated with a flag that represents pro slavery and white supremacy is a reasonable point of view.

For me there is no narrative, there is that simple question - do Cork GAA want to be associated with a flag that represents pro slavery and white supremacy?

For you the issue seems to be about everything as to have one opinion seems to imply that then you must also hold all these others opinions. That is a narrative we increasingly see accross all media and it is unhelpful as it encourages group think and a lack of examining the issue on its merits as well as fostering an us and them mentality on social issues. Don't get bogged down in some sort of "cultures war' bs and examine issues on their merits.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 16/06/2020 14:39:43    2281040

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Replying To Superglue:  "Imagine if a minority community asked for the flag to be removed. How do you think that conversation would go.

Also, people who are offended by racism aren't the permanently offended.
Just like those who are defending Mitchell and the flag aren't racist.....or are they?"
I don't think those arguing for in favour of the Confederate flag are necessarily being racist. Obviously it'd be naive to think that out of all who want to continue to fly the Confederate flag that some of them aren't racist.

I think the majority of those who are arguing in favour of Confederate flags have bought completely into the whole 'culture wars/identity politics' stuff out there and they've picked their side so they can't look at an issue on its own merits anymore and everything needs to be looked at through that prism of a 'struggle' between the 2 sides.

That's my take on it in anyways.

It'd be better if everyone could just examine things for themselves rather than go with their side on a debate.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 16/06/2020 14:52:26    2281042

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Replying To omahant:  "Should GAA club names be called after the town or village only (not green Irish freedom fighters) ?

In Ulster for example, should the GAA try to appeal to the Unionist community to participate in its games ? - I don't see club names like Na Piarsaigh reflective of a shared society !

I note the recently formed new club in East Belfast is generic in name."
I support a Na Piarsaigh and would be happy to hear someone out if they came with a complaint about the name. Not saying it should just be changed cause someone is offended but nothing wrong with hearing them out

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 16/06/2020 15:43:29    2281048

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Replying To MesAmis:  "I don't think those arguing for in favour of the Confederate flag are necessarily being racist. Obviously it'd be naive to think that out of all who want to continue to fly the Confederate flag that some of them aren't racist.

I think the majority of those who are arguing in favour of Confederate flags have bought completely into the whole 'culture wars/identity politics' stuff out there and they've picked their side so they can't look at an issue on its own merits anymore and everything needs to be looked at through that prism of a 'struggle' between the 2 sides.

That's my take on it in anyways.

It'd be better if everyone could just examine things for themselves rather than go with their side on a debate."
It would be a lot better if people were left live their lives the way they want and everyone minded their own business.

Live and let live.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11732 - 16/06/2020 16:26:38    2281050

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