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Replying To MesAmis: "Exactly, they were fighting for slavery. You can dance around the issue as much as you like but you can't just ignore it because it's inconvenient.
The attempted whitewashing of the flag and the Confederate cause may have been acceptable once but it should no longer be acceptable to whitewash history in such a way.
You can tie yourselves in knots trying to wipe out what the flag represented and still represents but you cannot change what it represents.
It's not snowfalkes, or the liberal PC warriors or other such nonsense. It's about whether Cork GAA want to be associated with a flag that represents pro-slavery and white supremacy. It's that simple." So too were the vikings, who feature on the Dublin GAA crest. There is some suggestion within the historical community that many viking expeditions were motivated explicitly by the desire to acquire slaves.
https://www.history.com/news/viking-slavery-raids-evidence
I presume you'll be leading the charge for Dublin GAA to rebrand too? In the interests of even-handedness.
Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1803 - 15/06/2020 12:06:56
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Replying To bdbuddah: "You see the world in simple terms, as to the point I made, I take it you don't believe in remembering Irish soldiers who served in the British army in the first word war as it is that 'simple' they served to defend the British empire ?" If you can point to a post in which I said such a thing then I'm all ears.
You want to whitewash and remove what the Confederate flag represents but don't want those Irish soldiers who fought in the British Army removed and whitewashed from history.
You're tying yourself up in knots here.
The soldiers who died fighting for the Confederacy may have believed in any of number of things that they were fighting for and that's fine but it doesn't change the fact that they were ultimately fighting for slavery. That's undeniable. Does that make every single one of them a horrible human being who deserved to die and should be forgotten? Of course not, but it doesn't change the fact that they died protecting slavery. It's a horrible tradegy but one which should not be forgotten and whitewashed from history in the way some are attempting to do by dancing around what the war was about.
Same as you can attach any number of meanings you want to the Confederate flag but what you cannot do, is change that it does represent pro-slavery.
You cannot deny reality as much as you may want to.
Cork GAA do not want to be associated with pro-slavery. I think that's a perfectly reasonable point of view and support them in that. That's all.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 15/06/2020 12:17:03
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Replying To Gleebo: "It strikes me as either disingenuous or rather naive to think that this cancel culture is going to stop at the Confederate flag or John Mitchel, even if these are probably some of the stronger cases of problematic symbols/naming in GAA circles. Here is a non-exhaustive list of some similar issues which may come up in future and how they might be advocated for:
Some rather uncomfortable writings penned by Padraig Pearse have come to light in recent years, so clubs in Roscommon and Galway might have to be renamed.
There are hundreds of clubs across Ireland named after other Irish nationalists or revolutionaries, many of whom may have killed people. These too may have to go.
Kevin Lynch's GAA club in Derry carries a lot of political baggage given that he was one of the hunger strikers. This is not in the spirit of an inclusive and pluralistic, Ireland.
Pavee are a club with a name suggesting that it is exclusively for the Traveller community. This is non-inclusive.
Any club with "Gaels" in the title suggests that it's exclusively the preserve of white Irish people.
GAA stadia such as Croke Park, MacHale Park, Dr. Cullen Park were named after religious figures. This is not inclusive or non-Christians, atheists or agnostics.
Michael Cusack, the first secretary of the GAA, has been accused by some historians of being an anti-semite. Cusack Park in Ennis and Westmeath would have to go, as would the Cusack Stand in Croke Park.
The Irish tricolour is seen as offensive to many Unionists in the north as they equate it with Republicanism. No more flying of that at inter-county matches nor singing of Amhrán na bhfiann.
Charles Stewart Parnell was an adulterer, this does not set a good example for young people. Any club or stadium named after him should be renamed.
New York GAA fly the stars and stripes, but the US armed forces have been involved in illegal wars, drone strikes, land grabs, the Trail of Tears, nuclear testing. This veneration of that flag cannot continue.
I am not suggesting that some causes shouldn't be considered, or that each case that I have listed above is entirely serious. But any impetus for change should come from the GAA membership, and should not be imposed by the superstructure, whether it's from the Ard-Chomhairle or outside agitators." How many would defend Mitchell the same way if it turned out he was an informer instead of a racist?
Superglue (Kerry) - Posts: 1283 - 15/06/2020 12:21:19
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Replying To MesAmis: "If you can point to a post in which I said such a thing then I'm all ears.
You want to whitewash and remove what the Confederate flag represents but don't want those Irish soldiers who fought in the British Army removed and whitewashed from history.
You're tying yourself up in knots here.
The soldiers who died fighting for the Confederacy may have believed in any of number of things that they were fighting for and that's fine but it doesn't change the fact that they were ultimately fighting for slavery. That's undeniable. Does that make every single one of them a horrible human being who deserved to die and should be forgotten? Of course not, but it doesn't change the fact that they died protecting slavery. It's a horrible tradegy but one which should not be forgotten and whitewashed from history in the way some are attempting to do by dancing around what the war was about.
Same as you can attach any number of meanings you want to the Confederate flag but what you cannot do, is change that it does represent pro-slavery.
You cannot deny reality as much as you may want to.
Cork GAA do not want to be associated with pro-slavery. I think that's a perfectly reasonable point of view and support them in that. That's all." I think that here's an example of how unintended offence can be given. The Confederate flag has been flown at Cork games for as long as I can remember, which is quite a long time, and, no doubt, was intended as some light-hearted reference to the Rebel County, with no malice intended.
Unfortunately, it is offensive to a lot of folk and, to be honest, it's something we can do without very well.
I just wish Cork had spoken out earlier so that it doesn't look like a knee-jerk reaction.
Flags, eh ? Who'd've thought flags would be a problem in Ireland ?
lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 369 - 15/06/2020 12:35:12
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Replying To Superglue: "How many would defend Mitchell the same way if it turned out he was an informer instead of a racist?" I haven't defended John Mitchel or his views on race, I'm merely pointing out that the woke crowd might be after some of your institutions next, using similar arguments.
But, given the prominence allocated to revisionist historians and commentators within mainstream Irish media, I imagine a few would try to defend informants. I imagine the "maturing as a nation" chestnut might be wheeled out to that end.
By the by, TG4 had an interesting documentary on informants a few years ago, "Brathadóir".
Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1803 - 15/06/2020 12:35:46
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Replying To Gleebo: "So too were the vikings, who feature on the Dublin GAA crest. There is some suggestion within the historical community that many viking expeditions were motivated explicitly by the desire to acquire slaves.
https://www.history.com/news/viking-slavery-raids-evidence
I presume you'll be leading the charge for Dublin GAA to rebrand too? In the interests of even-handedness." If you can point to where I posted that I'm all ears.
If you'd like to point me in the direction of the people who can trace their ancestry to those enslaved by the Vikings that are calling for the removal of the Viking longboat from the Dublin crest then I will gladly listen to their concerns if these people do in fact exist.
If those not of Viking descent in Ireland are still being discriminated against because of their non Viking heritage I have not heard of it but maybe you can educate me on the continued racism against non-Vikings in Ireland, or elsewhere around the world.
What about the Mayo GAA crest with its Christian element, I presume you think I should think that that needs to be removed also?
We can debate the issue at hand or we can engage in pointless whataboutery.
We surely have the cognitive ability to differentiate between something that happened 160 years ago that still clearly reverberates in our societies and things that happened a 1,000 years ago.
If you think that because Cork GAA don't want the Confederate flag to be associated with them that Dublin GAA should remove the Viking Longboat from their crest then you should make that argument and I'll listen to what you have to say. But that is not the discussion we are currently having which is whether or not Cork Gaa want to be associated with the Confederate flag and all it entails.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 15/06/2020 12:35:54
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Replying To MesAmis: "If you can point to a post in which I said such a thing then I'm all ears.
You want to whitewash and remove what the Confederate flag represents but don't want those Irish soldiers who fought in the British Army removed and whitewashed from history.
You're tying yourself up in knots here.
The soldiers who died fighting for the Confederacy may have believed in any of number of things that they were fighting for and that's fine but it doesn't change the fact that they were ultimately fighting for slavery. That's undeniable. Does that make every single one of them a horrible human being who deserved to die and should be forgotten? Of course not, but it doesn't change the fact that they died protecting slavery. It's a horrible tradegy but one which should not be forgotten and whitewashed from history in the way some are attempting to do by dancing around what the war was about.
Same as you can attach any number of meanings you want to the Confederate flag but what you cannot do, is change that it does represent pro-slavery.
You cannot deny reality as much as you may want to.
Cork GAA do not want to be associated with pro-slavery. I think that's a perfectly reasonable point of view and support them in that. That's all." I don't really care about Irish soldiers who died in the first world war if I'm honest, I have no family connection to them and have never attended a commentation for them. But I would respect people who want to do such things or use emblems around this. Why?, I might see the world war 1 as a war between various empires for dominance of the world but I know (i) not everyone agrees with me and (ii) regardless of the rights and wrongs of the war it was a tragic event and people connected to it are going to be shaped by it. You talk about it's original meaning?, it was a military flag used in in a very bitter war in American.
Up until recently it was considered both as a (I) symbol of oppression and (ii) people fighting a bloody war against a stronger opponent who put up a strong fight but eventually lost.
Its dangerous when people are told they have to think a certain way.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 768 - 15/06/2020 13:10:29
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Replying To bdbuddah: "I don't really care about Irish soldiers who died in the first world war if I'm honest, I have no family connection to them and have never attended a commentation for them. But I would respect people who want to do such things or use emblems around this. Why?, I might see the world war 1 as a war between various empires for dominance of the world but I know (i) not everyone agrees with me and (ii) regardless of the rights and wrongs of the war it was a tragic event and people connected to it are going to be shaped by it. You talk about it's original meaning?, it was a military flag used in in a very bitter war in American.
Up until recently it was considered both as a (I) symbol of oppression and (ii) people fighting a bloody war against a stronger opponent who put up a strong fight but eventually lost.
Its dangerous when people are told they have to think a certain way." It is dangerous when people are told they have to think a certain way but I don't see how Cork GAA are doing that?
They don't want to be associated with a flag that represents pro slavery and white supremacy.
They aren't telling people what to think, they are just asking people not to bring white supremacist pro slavery flags into Cork GAA grounds.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 15/06/2020 13:43:44
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Replying To Gleebo: "I haven't defended John Mitchel or his views on race, I'm merely pointing out that the woke crowd might be after some of your institutions next, using similar arguments.
But, given the prominence allocated to revisionist historians and commentators within mainstream Irish media, I imagine a few would try to defend informants. I imagine the "maturing as a nation" chestnut might be wheeled out to that end.
By the by, TG4 had an interesting documentary on informants a few years ago, "Brathadóir"." Disliking racism and it's symbols isn't a woke thing. Sure there are 'pc gone mad' things going on these days but Mitchell and the flag definitely aint two of them.
Don't think 'maturing as a nation' will get much air if the RIC/Black and Tans commemoration is anything to go by.
Maybe we should commemorate them if we are ok with commemorating racists?
Superglue (Kerry) - Posts: 1283 - 15/06/2020 13:51:44
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Replying To GreenandRed: " linkFunny that you metion the swastika, seemingly we had our own connections with the Nazi's more recently than 140 years ago. It is political correctness, driven by social media and other modern media, gone mad. Are the Gardaí going to go door to door in the Rebel county and find the Klu Klu Clann na Gael white supremacists with confederate flags hidden under their floorboards? No they are not, because these flagbearers ar honest decent GAA people who have a flag that looks good, not because they approve of slavery. Apparently Amazon are considering removing the Dukes of Hazard from it's streaming service because of it's association with the Confederate Flag. Where will it all end? Black lives definitely do matter. As well as as Jewish lives, Chinese lives, Brazilian lives, transgender lives, female lives, abuse victims lives and , most of all for me, disabled people's lives. Let's learn from the many mistakes of history and learn how look after everyone a bit better than we do while learning."
Superglue (Kerry) - Posts: 1283 - 15/06/2020 14:00:09
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Replying To MesAmis: "If you can point to where I posted that I'm all ears.
If you'd like to point me in the direction of the people who can trace their ancestry to those enslaved by the Vikings that are calling for the removal of the Viking longboat from the Dublin crest then I will gladly listen to their concerns if these people do in fact exist.
If those not of Viking descent in Ireland are still being discriminated against because of their non Viking heritage I have not heard of it but maybe you can educate me on the continued racism against non-Vikings in Ireland, or elsewhere around the world.
What about the Mayo GAA crest with its Christian element, I presume you think I should think that that needs to be removed also?
We can debate the issue at hand or we can engage in pointless whataboutery.
We surely have the cognitive ability to differentiate between something that happened 160 years ago that still clearly reverberates in our societies and things that happened a 1,000 years ago.
If you think that because Cork GAA don't want the Confederate flag to be associated with them that Dublin GAA should remove the Viking Longboat from their crest then you should make that argument and I'll listen to what you have to say. But that is not the discussion we are currently having which is whether or not Cork Gaa want to be associated with the Confederate flag and all it entails." So when the confederate flag is 1000 years old will it be acceptable like the viking long boat is to some today mes?
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11732 - 15/06/2020 14:26:50
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "So when the confederate flag is 1000 years old will it be acceptable like the viking long boat is to some today mes?" It entirely depends on the 900 years between then and now.
Again that's not my argument to make though, if you want to make the argument for banning the Viking Boat from the Dublin GAA crest then I'll listen to your arguments.
My consistent point is that I've no problem with Cork GAA not wanting themselves to be associated with white supremacy and pro-slavery. You might disagree but that is my point.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 15/06/2020 14:48:00
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "So when the confederate flag is 1000 years old will it be acceptable like the viking long boat is to some today mes?" If racism is gone like the Vikings then it might be
Superglue (Kerry) - Posts: 1283 - 15/06/2020 14:56:14
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "So when the confederate flag is 1000 years old will it be acceptable like the viking long boat is to some today mes?" I would hope that in a thousand years if the world still exists the human race has developed beyond what it is today and racism is no longer discussed except in the pages of history. The flag like it's time, will be seen as the dark age of human development.
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 982 - 15/06/2020 15:00:43
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I'm not expecting to see reruns of the Dukes of Hazzard any time soon.
lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 369 - 15/06/2020 15:00:44
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Replying To MesAmis: "If you can point to where I posted that I'm all ears.
If you'd like to point me in the direction of the people who can trace their ancestry to those enslaved by the Vikings that are calling for the removal of the Viking longboat from the Dublin crest then I will gladly listen to their concerns if these people do in fact exist.
If those not of Viking descent in Ireland are still being discriminated against because of their non Viking heritage I have not heard of it but maybe you can educate me on the continued racism against non-Vikings in Ireland, or elsewhere around the world.
What about the Mayo GAA crest with its Christian element, I presume you think I should think that that needs to be removed also?
We can debate the issue at hand or we can engage in pointless whataboutery.
We surely have the cognitive ability to differentiate between something that happened 160 years ago that still clearly reverberates in our societies and things that happened a 1,000 years ago.
If you think that because Cork GAA don't want the Confederate flag to be associated with them that Dublin GAA should remove the Viking Longboat from their crest then you should make that argument and I'll listen to what you have to say. But that is not the discussion we are currently having which is whether or not Cork Gaa want to be associated with the Confederate flag and all it entails." Throughout this thread, you have defended on your point of view- that the confederacy flag should be banned from GAA grounds in Ireland-on the basis that it represents the US legacy of slavery, an abhorrent practice. Yet you think it's acceptable that Dublin GAA should honour the Vikings, invaders who enslaved actual Irish people, on their logo.
I'm sure the people designing Dublin's crest didn't have slavery in mind at the time, as with people bringing the confederate flag to Cork matches. But one is excoriated while the other has hardly had a mention in the media.
What you call "whataboutery" I would call "consistency" or a lack thereof.
You seem to differentiate these two cases purely on the basis of time passed. Why should it matter that the latter happened a thousand years ago? Surely slavery in the US will still be objectionable 800 years from now?
As for the Mayo GAA crest, I am an atheist and would personally prefer that it didn't have a religious motto thereunder. But I strongly suspect that I am in the minority among Mayo people on that score (it is a relatively religious part of the country) and I generally don't try to force my political beliefs on others (other than in cyberspace, anyway).
It's naive in the extreme to think that these changes won't lead to other changes to "problematic" names, symbols, institutions. Legislators/ rule makers tend to be easily swayed, going with the popular wind, or what passes for it in the media, anyway. Changes to Rules 21 and 42 occurred within a few years of each other, reflecting political changes on the island of Ireland. But at least those had a democratic mandate from GAA Congress. This decision had none, nada, nitto. Much like the renewal of the Sky TV deal, come to think of it...
Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1803 - 15/06/2020 15:38:35
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Replying To Htaem: "Could be none, it's been waved before numerous times in the past and I don't know of any consequences. But now that there's a clearly stated ban they could issue warnings or bans for those who wave the flags. Have they outlined the penalties?
Anyway can you get to your point please, I'm not sure where you're going with this." So after a few weeks of protests and riots across the world, your answer is there was never consequences before, so we should just carry on?
You don't think, in an environment where even NASCAR has banned it, a stadium full of people waving that flag in Ireland will just go unreported, completely unnoticed, internationally?
You don't think there could be negative consequences for the GAA, especially in places like the US, Britain?
Do you think it might have an effect on any black or other minorities who are currently members or considering membership of a GAA club, for example places like London or New York?
Do you think any black parents, anywhere, would look at the GAA after that and say, "... that's an organisation I want my child to be a part of..."?
extranjero (Wexford) - Posts: 366 - 15/06/2020 16:21:27
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Replying To Gleebo: "Throughout this thread, you have defended on your point of view- that the confederacy flag should be banned from GAA grounds in Ireland-on the basis that it represents the US legacy of slavery, an abhorrent practice. Yet you think it's acceptable that Dublin GAA should honour the Vikings, invaders who enslaved actual Irish people, on their logo.
I'm sure the people designing Dublin's crest didn't have slavery in mind at the time, as with people bringing the confederate flag to Cork matches. But one is excoriated while the other has hardly had a mention in the media.
What you call "whataboutery" I would call "consistency" or a lack thereof.
You seem to differentiate these two cases purely on the basis of time passed. Why should it matter that the latter happened a thousand years ago? Surely slavery in the US will still be objectionable 800 years from now?
As for the Mayo GAA crest, I am an atheist and would personally prefer that it didn't have a religious motto thereunder. But I strongly suspect that I am in the minority among Mayo people on that score (it is a relatively religious part of the country) and I generally don't try to force my political beliefs on others (other than in cyberspace, anyway).
It's naive in the extreme to think that these changes won't lead to other changes to "problematic" names, symbols, institutions. Legislators/ rule makers tend to be easily swayed, going with the popular wind, or what passes for it in the media, anyway. Changes to Rules 21 and 42 occurred within a few years of each other, reflecting political changes on the island of Ireland. But at least those had a democratic mandate from GAA Congress. This decision had none, nada, nitto. Much like the renewal of the Sky TV deal, come to think of it..." I have been completely consistent.
I have no problem with the Cork County Board not wanting to be associated with slavery and white supremacy. That is my point.
My not having a problem the Dublin crest is not just to do with the passage of time as you incorrectly stated above. I suggest you have a reread of my post and come back to me with the evidence of the millions of people around the world of non Viking descent that continue to be discriminated against by those of Viking descent and those people who have a problem with the Dublin crest and who call for its removal. I wasn't aware that these people exist whereas I don't think you'd even argue that with the Confederate flag there are millions of people who can trace their ancestry to those who were enslaved and they are calling for the Confederate flag to be removed from various places.
One issue, the Confederate flag, is an actual real issue in society and the other, the Dublin crest, is one that you have completely made up.
It isn't an issue at all. If people genuinely come forward and make a genuine case then of course I will listen to them, and not just whinge about PC gone mad and snowflakes.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 15/06/2020 16:30:31
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Replying To Gleebo: "Throughout this thread, you have defended on your point of view- that the confederacy flag should be banned from GAA grounds in Ireland-on the basis that it represents the US legacy of slavery, an abhorrent practice. Yet you think it's acceptable that Dublin GAA should honour the Vikings, invaders who enslaved actual Irish people, on their logo.
I'm sure the people designing Dublin's crest didn't have slavery in mind at the time, as with people bringing the confederate flag to Cork matches. But one is excoriated while the other has hardly had a mention in the media.
What you call "whataboutery" I would call "consistency" or a lack thereof.
You seem to differentiate these two cases purely on the basis of time passed. Why should it matter that the latter happened a thousand years ago? Surely slavery in the US will still be objectionable 800 years from now?
As for the Mayo GAA crest, I am an atheist and would personally prefer that it didn't have a religious motto thereunder. But I strongly suspect that I am in the minority among Mayo people on that score (it is a relatively religious part of the country) and I generally don't try to force my political beliefs on others (other than in cyberspace, anyway).
It's naive in the extreme to think that these changes won't lead to other changes to "problematic" names, symbols, institutions. Legislators/ rule makers tend to be easily swayed, going with the popular wind, or what passes for it in the media, anyway. Changes to Rules 21 and 42 occurred within a few years of each other, reflecting political changes on the island of Ireland. But at least those had a democratic mandate from GAA Congress. This decision had none, nada, nitto. Much like the renewal of the Sky TV deal, come to think of it..." You know if some of these other problematic names or symbols are subsequently removed in the future, then it will be because they also deserve to be.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 15/06/2020 16:47:21
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Replying To Superglue: "Disliking racism and it's symbols isn't a woke thing. Sure there are 'pc gone mad' things going on these days but Mitchell and the flag definitely aint two of them.
Don't think 'maturing as a nation' will get much air if the RIC/Black and Tans commemoration is anything to go by.
Maybe we should commemorate them if we are ok with commemorating racists?" No disliking racism is not a woke thing.
Demanding that anything that has ever offended anyone, anywhere be removed (and some things that haven't) most certainly is. I can't remember ever hearing anyone complain about any of the clubs named after Mitchel until a journalist got hold of it recently, now it seems it's a cause celebre. Go figure. I'm sure that these things will be decided upon in the fullness of time in the correct forums, which are within club committees, AGMs, Bord na nÓg meetings, Annual Congress etc.
I personally think there are other ways to deal with these sorts of things. For instance, the Belgian comic book series Tintin had an album set in the Congo in which some pretty appalling paternalistic and racist stuff was peddled. Instead of banning the book as some advocate, the editions are now reprinted with a parental advisory that the attitudes expressed back in 1929 are not those of today, while some of the more extreme scenes have been redacted.
To me something like that stimulates an actual debate on the how to tackle the topic at hand, rather than merely banning something and then trying to forget it ever existed.
As for the RIC/Black and Tans thing, I wouldn't be so sure. It would have been unthinkable not so long ago that Irish people would have turned out to have seen Queen Liz visit Ireland. It would have been unthinkable that Sinn Féin would be sitting in Stormont. It would have been unthinkable to have heard republicans speaking on broadcast television in either Ireland or Britain.
Given that the Auxiliaries murdered antecedents of mine, I am unlikely to commemorate them any time soon. But you do you.
Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1803 - 15/06/2020 16:53:43
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