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Could A Professional Hurling/Football League Survive In Ireland?

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Hoe many hours a week would development officer work entail? 20-25 max?
It would be hugely promotional work and be in the sport that the player is otherwise training and playing full time.
All Players wouldnt have to work as development officers but it would allow many be pros who otherwise wouldnt."
20-25 hours ?

More than half the working week, then.

It wouldn't leave much time for group training. You'd have to question the whole project with so little time.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 369 - 01/06/2020 10:29:50    2279634

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Replying To Trump2020:  "Good points. Does having Darts in every pub hurt Professional Darts? Does having bowling alleys in cities and large towns hurt Professional Bowling? Same can be asked for Snooker, Billiards, College Football vs NFL, etc. Why does any employer CHOOSE to pay you? To do a service for them or to make money for them, etc. I never once said REPLACE the GAA. Not once. I said if done right they can both flourish. The GAA can actually MAKE MONEY if all this was done right. Empty pitches and stadiums being rented is a win/win. Bigger and better is really simple and I'll answer your question with a question: are you telling me that Hurling for example is as big as it can get? No room for growth?"
Well, setting aside the vexatious question of whether most of these are sports (in fact, does billiards even exist any more?), you're right. Employers pay you to provide a servicev which makes them money. Nothing you've posted suggests that professional GAA will make money for the promoter. Outside the Premier League, very few soccer clubs make money. They're nearly all propped up by benefactors.

Hurling ? Sure - it could be better promoted. It's a mystery why there's a north-south divide. Professional players are not going to change that.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 369 - 01/06/2020 10:36:16    2279636

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Replying To Trump2020:  "I think most investors and stockholders would see it as a long term investment with no profits for 5-10 years. The marketing and promotions would have to be fierce. ESPN and Foxsports among others would have to be involved to get it rolling. It wouldn't be easy."
I think there are a number of problems but realistically this is the killer.

There's a rule of investing where the investor should be aiming to make 10 times the return on any investment within 5 years.

You're really talking a hard minimum of 3m to run a professional team a year. Is it ever going to be worth 30m a year within any sort of acceptable timeframe. I don't really see it.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 01/06/2020 11:07:09    2279639

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Replying To Trump2020:  "I think most investors and stockholders would see it as a long term investment with no profits for 5-10 years. The marketing and promotions would have to be fierce. ESPN and Foxsports among others would have to be involved to get it rolling. It wouldn't be easy."
ESPN and foxsports won't give a flying fiddler's about GAA. They might be convinced to show games but won't pay much money for it

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 01/06/2020 11:39:58    2279641

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Hoe many hours a week would development officer work entail? 20-25 max?
It would be hugely promotional work and be in the sport that the player is otherwise training and playing full time.
All Players wouldnt have to work as development officers but it would allow many be pros who otherwise wouldnt."
I was working off an assumption of 600 players on 30k , 18 million . gda wages must be around 9 million for 300 of them .. croke park naming (very low at 4m) 20 hours a week per player , would cover all the gda work . Lets cover half of it 4.5 million at 10hours per player .That 8.5 (4.5 gda+4m croker) of your 18m bill .. Gaa income increased 25 million in 10 years . Im taking a small 8 million thats 16 .5 m raised . The player not gda doing cold calling to raise funds ,club wexford is 30 euro for example , Lee Chin or Austin gleeson phoning would posibily sign up 1000 members ×30 his wage ! Wexford has a commercial manager... 30 players doing 10h a week as small county commercial managers , a great way to raise funds ... all this is without any increas in games/structure i by a profesional Gaa . 70+million last year income, ridiculous to presume this is the celing ! Again the question is pro sport possible , 10euro on semi and final tickets is another 3m+ . big game tickets 20 extra for center field sitting ,people pay 10euro for better ryanair seats..all ireland champions v rest of ireland market properly ( maybe 20 % to charity) I'd say increasing income from 70 to 100 m would be easy for a pro sport..

jfk21 (Dublin) - Posts: 51 - 01/06/2020 12:00:39    2279642

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Replying To lionofludesch:  "20-25 hours ?

More than half the working week, then.

It wouldn't leave much time for group training. You'd have to question the whole project with so little time."
It would if all players were working in this. It would be during the school year and then players would be free for rest to train full time. If you got sponsors and external funding you would then be able to get some players to he full time pros without needing to be doing this coaching.
20 hours is at max 4 hours a day and allow players to do 2 training sessions a day with plenty of rest and recovery on top

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1636 - 01/06/2020 13:07:19    2279644

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Replying To KillingFields:  "It would if all players were working in this. It would be during the school year and then players would be free for rest to train full time. If you got sponsors and external funding you would then be able to get some players to he full time pros without needing to be doing this coaching.
20 hours is at max 4 hours a day and allow players to do 2 training sessions a day with plenty of rest and recovery on top"
Two training sessions a day ? Plus coaching, plus travel time, plus rest and recovery.

Jaysus.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 369 - 01/06/2020 14:25:41    2279650

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Replying To lionofludesch:  "Well, setting aside the vexatious question of whether most of these are sports (in fact, does billiards even exist any more?), you're right. Employers pay you to provide a servicev which makes them money. Nothing you've posted suggests that professional GAA will make money for the promoter. Outside the Premier League, very few soccer clubs make money. They're nearly all propped up by benefactors.

Hurling ? Sure - it could be better promoted. It's a mystery why there's a north-south divide. Professional players are not going to change that."
North-South divide? Could be solved by a Professional League. Think about it: if a lad growing up in a "weak" Hurling county wants to play he really doesn't have a lot of incentive under the current way but if he has INCENTIVE to train and play on a team that has a REALISTIC chance of winning and competing and gets paid to do it then the sky is the limit. What Grade would you give the GAA in developing Hurling in the "weaker" counties? Could a Professional League do worse?
As for making money for the Promoters, investors, shareholders, etc all would depend on a lot of factors such as marketing, recruiting, etc. Like I said it would be a Long Term investment, not overnight. Most people have some types of long term investments already so nothing strange there. Look at the history of the NFL. Started very humble. I see a lot of sports on television that puts me to sleep and I believe Hurling and Football are 100 times a superior product.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 1082 - 01/06/2020 15:45:21    2279653

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Replying To lionofludesch:  "Two training sessions a day ? Plus coaching, plus travel time, plus rest and recovery.

Jaysus."
Two sessions a day between s&c and a pitch session most days of week ain't difficult. That combined with a few hours in a school doing some coaching is far from hardship.
It's about 4/5 hours of training and then an hour to hour and a half of coaching. It really isnt difficult or hardship.
There is many individual athletes be they swimmers, runners or cyclists who've been doing that for years.
I swam competitively and was doing an hour in morning before school 2/3 mornings a week then 3 evenings during the week for an hour then a 2 hours session on a sunday. And I didnt do too much compared to a lot of swimmers

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1636 - 01/06/2020 15:50:40    2279654

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Replying To Breezy:  "ESPN and foxsports won't give a flying fiddler's about GAA. They might be convinced to show games but won't pay much money for it"
ESPN used to show Australia Rules Football. If Disney was an investor in one of the teams or the Professional League itself then it would make sense for them to show it.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 1082 - 01/06/2020 15:51:04    2279655

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think there are a number of problems but realistically this is the killer.

There's a rule of investing where the investor should be aiming to make 10 times the return on any investment within 5 years.

You're really talking a hard minimum of 3m to run a professional team a year. Is it ever going to be worth 30m a year within any sort of acceptable timeframe. I don't really see it."
I never heard that rule and of course I don't see that kind of return that fast. But long term it could be very lucrative if done right.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 1082 - 01/06/2020 15:53:23    2279656

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Replying To KillingFields:  "It would if all players were working in this. It would be during the school year and then players would be free for rest to train full time. If you got sponsors and external funding you would then be able to get some players to he full time pros without needing to be doing this coaching.
20 hours is at max 4 hours a day and allow players to do 2 training sessions a day with plenty of rest and recovery on top"
Players could be sponsored alright , main sponsor or the jersey and maybe a small sponsor on the back . I'm a quite small buisness and i spend 4k a year advertising , multiple small sponsors would accumulated a substantial amount . The current income of the Gaa is 70+ million , the season is defined and restricted by the club game. With a free hand to introduce any format its anybodys guess , what the income ceiling is ? 10% on tickets sales 3m croke park name rights 5 million other stadiums maybe 2m that thats around 10m instant extra under current structures. . lengthen half time by 5min water breaks each half 2min . thats 70k by 60 game 5m in revenue split 50/50 your now up 12.5 million , not small change . Why not play a 3 month summer and winter championship if league is not a money spinner ? I'd say 150 to 200 million is more than possible under multiple formats. If 2 championships happen next year, why not every year !

jfk21 (Dublin) - Posts: 51 - 01/06/2020 16:06:47    2279657

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Replying To Trump2020:  "ESPN used to show Australia Rules Football. If Disney was an investor in one of the teams or the Professional League itself then it would make sense for them to show it."
What's your logic there ?

ESPN show GAA because Disney own one of the teams ?

I don't understand the commercial value to ESPN.

For the time being, I'm ignoring the assumption that Disney want to own a GAA team.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 369 - 01/06/2020 16:17:48    2279658

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Replying To Trump2020:  "North-South divide? Could be solved by a Professional League. Think about it: if a lad growing up in a "weak" Hurling county wants to play he really doesn't have a lot of incentive under the current way but if he has INCENTIVE to train and play on a team that has a REALISTIC chance of winning and competing and gets paid to do it then the sky is the limit. What Grade would you give the GAA in developing Hurling in the "weaker" counties? Could a Professional League do worse?
As for making money for the Promoters, investors, shareholders, etc all would depend on a lot of factors such as marketing, recruiting, etc. Like I said it would be a Long Term investment, not overnight. Most people have some types of long term investments already so nothing strange there. Look at the history of the NFL. Started very humble. I see a lot of sports on television that puts me to sleep and I believe Hurling and Football are 100 times a superior product."
The snag with being enthused by winning is that the number of winners and losers are the same.

I'm not seeing it. Commercial investors are not there to develop the game. They're there to make money or, at least, keep their losses to a manageable level.

Come back when you've found some sponsors.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 369 - 01/06/2020 16:26:01    2279659

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Two sessions a day between s&c and a pitch session most days of week ain't difficult. That combined with a few hours in a school doing some coaching is far from hardship.
It's about 4/5 hours of training and then an hour to hour and a half of coaching. It really isnt difficult or hardship.
There is many individual athletes be they swimmers, runners or cyclists who've been doing that for years.
I swam competitively and was doing an hour in morning before school 2/3 mornings a week then 3 evenings during the week for an hour then a 2 hours session on a sunday. And I didnt do too much compared to a lot of swimmers"
Fair enough. So they're not really putting all that much time into developing their personal games and raising standards.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 369 - 01/06/2020 16:27:08    2279660

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Replying To lionofludesch:  "Fair enough. So they're not really putting all that much time into developing their personal games and raising standards."
What would you expect them to be doing differently that would raise standards
They would have far more rest and recovery time so could train harder and still be able to do more trai ing on their own which would raise standards

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1636 - 01/06/2020 16:39:26    2279663

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Replying To lionofludesch:  "What's your logic there ?

ESPN show GAA because Disney own one of the teams ?

I don't understand the commercial value to ESPN.

For the time being, I'm ignoring the assumption that Disney want to own a GAA team."
Disney owns ESPN.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 1082 - 01/06/2020 16:45:10    2279664

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Replying To lionofludesch:  "The snag with being enthused by winning is that the number of winners and losers are the same.

I'm not seeing it. Commercial investors are not there to develop the game. They're there to make money or, at least, keep their losses to a manageable level.

Come back when you've found some sponsors."
No they are not there to develop the game but if done right they'd make money and that's what investors want.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 1082 - 01/06/2020 16:46:47    2279665

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Replying To lionofludesch:  "What's your logic there ?

ESPN show GAA because Disney own one of the teams ?

I don't understand the commercial value to ESPN.

For the time being, I'm ignoring the assumption that Disney want to own a GAA team."
If that team did badly it wouldn't be long before they were called a Mickey Mouse operation....

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 5955 - 01/06/2020 17:11:16    2279666

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Replying To lionofludesch:  "The snag with being enthused by winning is that the number of winners and losers are the same.

I'm not seeing it. Commercial investors are not there to develop the game. They're there to make money or, at least, keep their losses to a manageable level.

Come back when you've found some sponsors."
The top 10 football teams are very interchangeable
the top 10 in hurling are near set in stone . Pump as much money into Antrim/ Down that went into Dublin hurling ! That would give you a top 10 hurling of Antrim/down ,, 5 munster wexford kk Galway and Dublin with a population of about 4 million . The top 8 hurling counties actually produced 12 million it was 18million football championship , last year in gate recipes .Of the total 72 million income around 25 to 30 million is being produced by 10 hurling counties.. Definatly my last post , Professional hurling is maybe possible , football no chance.

jfk21 (Dublin) - Posts: 51 - 01/06/2020 17:30:37    2279668

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