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Tailteann Cup - Tier 2

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Replying To Whammo86:  "As an Antrim fan what I'd like is that if we got promoted from division 4 to go straight into a division 3 campaign.

Forget the Ulster championship.

2 league campaigns a year with club breaks scheduled throughout April to September would be my ideal season."
Yes, I like two short leagues each year too, with smaller divisions to allow time for both 'ebb & flo' phases.

Say, 6 ranked divs with team quantities of:
- 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, (3v2+2) in the Spring League
- Divs 1 to 5 are round robins (4 games)
- Div 6 has a draw for 2 pairs who play head-to-head & these 4 play the other 3 (all play 4 games)
- Top team wins each respective div
- 1 up/1 down resets for similar Summer League

Separately, AI Cup limited to 'Top 24' based on average league position over both phases [e.g. a team finishes 1st in Spring div 3 & 4th in Summer div 2 - average position is 10th = (11+9)/2].
'Best 8' based on average position to 'Open Draw Rd of 16'; 'Other 16' to 'Open Draw Prelim Rd'.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1824 - 28/07/2020 02:21:16    2285513

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Replying To wicklowsupport:  "Would have to agree. Wicklow won the Tommy Murphy Cup in 2007 and lost in the final to Antrim in 2008 but from that period, Wicklow supporters including myself would point to beating Kildare in the Leinster Championship in 2008 in Croke Park and our great run under Micko when we got to the last 12 of the championship beating Fermanagh, Cavan and Down in Aughrim before losing to Kildare in Portlaoise. As a supporter those wins stand out much more than the Tommy Murphy win. Aside from the fact that we won those games, probably against the odds was the atmosphere at the matches which was electric, on the other hand, winning the Tommy Murphy cup in a near empty Croke Park with no atmosphere just didn't match up in any way. I also remember the atmosphere when we drew away to Armagh in the qualifier and lost narrowly to them at home in what turned out to be Micko's last match in charge. I'm not a fan of second tier competitions, I can understand why they are suggested but in reality and in the format that the GAA present them, they don't capture the imagination of the supporters or the players compared to the championship. Wicklow may have no hope of winning the Leinster championship but neither do any of the other 10 teams in Leinster at the moment."
Well said wicklowsupport, I was in Croker when Wicklow beat Kildare in 2008 and it was great to see the scenes of joy among the Wicklow fans, for me that's what championship football is all about.

I've always been a critic of 2nd tier championships in football, they've been tried numerous times before (B All-Ireland and Tommy Muprhy cup) and failed because the interest isn't there from the fans, broadcasters nor the Gaa. So why exactly would anybody think it's going to work this time?

As the auld saying goes, 'the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results'

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 28/07/2020 08:13:35    2285514

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Replying To wicklowsupport:  "Would have to agree. Wicklow won the Tommy Murphy Cup in 2007 and lost in the final to Antrim in 2008 but from that period, Wicklow supporters including myself would point to beating Kildare in the Leinster Championship in 2008 in Croke Park and our great run under Micko when we got to the last 12 of the championship beating Fermanagh, Cavan and Down in Aughrim before losing to Kildare in Portlaoise. As a supporter those wins stand out much more than the Tommy Murphy win. Aside from the fact that we won those games, probably against the odds was the atmosphere at the matches which was electric, on the other hand, winning the Tommy Murphy cup in a near empty Croke Park with no atmosphere just didn't match up in any way. I also remember the atmosphere when we drew away to Armagh in the qualifier and lost narrowly to them at home in what turned out to be Micko's last match in charge. I'm not a fan of second tier competitions, I can understand why they are suggested but in reality and in the format that the GAA present them, they don't capture the imagination of the supporters or the players compared to the championship. Wicklow may have no hope of winning the Leinster championship but neither do any of the other 10 teams in Leinster at the moment."
Your post there though sort of highlights the problem with the current system, Wicklows last championship win was in 2018 against Offaly but the reward was then 2 hammerings from Dublin and Cavan. The last big win was in 2008 against Kildare, a whole generation of players have come and gone since then with very little to show for their time. About 4 or 5 championship wins in the last decade and all against teams at their level, some terrible beatings from teams the level above. It's hard to get players or young lads interested with that type of record.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2484 - 28/07/2020 12:42:19    2285554

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Soma, you quite rightly point to Wicklow losing heavily to Cavan. I was at that match and I put the heavy loss down to the management team who decided after losing to Dublin quite heavily to implement a blanket defence when in fact they should have had a go at Cavan especially been at home. Their strategy was a disaster. A Leinster team getting hammered by Dublin is nothing new as Dublin have hammered Kildare and Meath on a regular basis in recent years and hammered Laois by 18 points in the Leinster final that year. With regard to the Tailteann Cup, I think the big flaw in the competition is that the winner aren't automatically included in the following year's all ireland series. As a result, if I were a manager of a team in Division 3 or 4, I would priorities the league over the championship as promotion in the league is the best route back into the All Ireland proper; not winning the Tailteann Cup.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1179 - 28/07/2020 16:10:31    2285596

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Replying To Htaem:  "Well said wicklowsupport, I was in Croker when Wicklow beat Kildare in 2008 and it was great to see the scenes of joy among the Wicklow fans, for me that's what championship football is all about.

I've always been a critic of 2nd tier championships in football, they've been tried numerous times before (B All-Ireland and Tommy Muprhy cup) and failed because the interest isn't there from the fans, broadcasters nor the Gaa. So why exactly would anybody think it's going to work this time?

As the auld saying goes, 'the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results'"
they've done the Leinster championship for a few years and it hasn't exactly helped the majority of the teams in leinster

wishfulthinkin (Cavan) - Posts: 1481 - 28/07/2020 16:20:34    2285598

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Replying To wicklowsupport:  "Soma, you quite rightly point to Wicklow losing heavily to Cavan. I was at that match and I put the heavy loss down to the management team who decided after losing to Dublin quite heavily to implement a blanket defence when in fact they should have had a go at Cavan especially been at home. Their strategy was a disaster. A Leinster team getting hammered by Dublin is nothing new as Dublin have hammered Kildare and Meath on a regular basis in recent years and hammered Laois by 18 points in the Leinster final that year. With regard to the Tailteann Cup, I think the big flaw in the competition is that the winner aren't automatically included in the following year's all ireland series. As a result, if I were a manager of a team in Division 3 or 4, I would priorities the league over the championship as promotion in the league is the best route back into the All Ireland proper; not winning the Tailteann Cup."
Nobody is automatically in the TC, if you are in D3&4 you are only in it once you lose outside the provincial final. If I were a D3 manager and I didn't win league promotion I would be looking to the cup to salvage the year and hopefully set it up for promotion the following year. Wining has it own momentum, the more games a team plays and wins together the better the become. I have no doubt that every player and manager will take it serious because it shows you are going forward. A one off win against a half a big boy demonstrates nothing and are hollow victories but has been too often used as a crutch for lame county boards and clubs for not getting their house in order.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 982 - 28/07/2020 16:56:04    2285601

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Replying To wishfulthinkin:  "they've done the Leinster championship for a few years and it hasn't exactly helped the majority of the teams in leinster"
Well Dublin's dominance hasn't helped but we're not alone, no team in Ireland can seem to beat the Dubs in championship football, so we're in good company.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 28/07/2020 17:05:07    2285602

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Replying To Htaem:  "Well Dublin's dominance hasn't helped but we're not alone, no team in Ireland can seem to beat the Dubs in championship football, so we're in good company."
Htaem, I think this is the nub of the problem. I don't mean to single out Kildare and Meath in this regard but for people to think a second tier comp is the solution to the problem with the championship is madness. We need more teams that are capable of competing against one another on any given day but the opposite is happening and it isn't just confined to Leinster. What we need is the rivalry and atmosphere of the 90s when Kildare, Meath could challenge Dublin competitively in front of sell out crowds with brilliant atmosphere. We even gave Meath a tremendous fright in 91 when we drew with ye after your four game saga with Dublin.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1179 - 28/07/2020 17:34:19    2285607

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Replying To wicklowsupport:  "Htaem, I think this is the nub of the problem. I don't mean to single out Kildare and Meath in this regard but for people to think a second tier comp is the solution to the problem with the championship is madness. We need more teams that are capable of competing against one another on any given day but the opposite is happening and it isn't just confined to Leinster. What we need is the rivalry and atmosphere of the 90s when Kildare, Meath could challenge Dublin competitively in front of sell out crowds with brilliant atmosphere. We even gave Meath a tremendous fright in 91 when we drew with ye after your four game saga with Dublin."
Again I agree with you, I think most supporters would agree that a competitive championship is far more entertaining than a foregone conclusion, like what we currently have in Leinster, Munster anfd the All-Ireland.

Now how to achieve this is obviously difficult to answer, I think a fairer spread of the cash wouldn't do any harm but that's a debate for another day.

What I certainly don't think will work is a second tier football championship, especiallly one which was tried and failed before. Dusting it off for a second spin does certainly wiff of madness to me.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 28/07/2020 20:14:14    2285617

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Why is everyone so obsessed with the weaker counties and how hard done by they are and trying to level it all off so that the lesser counties can win something. This is sport some teams are better than others its that simple. Yes population comes into with GAA but what do you want to do there ? Tell half of Dublin they have to play for letrim so that they have a better chance? We have a perfectly good working competition that where every team can win against teams of there own standard in the league and to be honest the league is a bloody great competition. I'd encourage more supporters to go to the games.
Then we have the Provincials and all Ireland series where everyone gets a bite at the cherry no matter who you are. Yes some provinces are Tougher than others. Dublin being dominant in Lenister and Kerry in Munster. Unfortunately there is not much we can do about that unless we scrap the Province. But i quiet like it . Although if it were to be scraped id still like a full All Ireland every team entered at the start. And guess what you will still get the Dublin's and Kerry's and Tyrone's reaching the Finals because there the best teams and they fully deserve to be there. There would also be a few hammerings along the way and so is life. Many a hammering we got in club football and there was no outcry to change the structure. In my opinion football has never been so good we are witnessing the best team and best individual's that every played and Its bloody exciting. Its unfortunate for the Bunch of teams who are chasing Because there dam good teams too and there day will come.
Here's hoping we get to see some intercounty ball this year as long as it is safe for everyone.

farneygael (Monaghan) - Posts: 172 - 28/07/2020 21:40:37    2285627

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Replying To Htaem:  "Well said wicklowsupport, I was in Croker when Wicklow beat Kildare in 2008 and it was great to see the scenes of joy among the Wicklow fans, for me that's what championship football is all about.

I've always been a critic of 2nd tier championships in football, they've been tried numerous times before (B All-Ireland and Tommy Muprhy cup) and failed because the interest isn't there from the fans, broadcasters nor the Gaa. So why exactly would anybody think it's going to work this time?

As the auld saying goes, 'the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results'"
"the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results'

Is leaving things the way they are not doing this?

The argument that's always throw out is "we don't train all year to play in a B championship" yet by that logic they have no issue with training all year to play two games where they could be hammered in both.

To say that the Tommy Murphy Cup didn't work makes no sense. Take Wicklow won it in 2007 and won best Kildare in Leinster the following year, got to the final that year but lost. In 2009 had their best championship season. Would that havr happened without the Murphy Cup? Antrim wree the same at the time. Got them winning games and championships and gave them something to build on.

I can't never understand how people think the likes of Waterford, Wicklow etc are somehow better off getting 20 plus point beatings off teams.

The recent example people use are Carlow. Yet the only games they actually won werr against other Div 4 teams.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 402 - 28/07/2020 23:04:56    2285637

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There is an over riding problem in the GAA in that we are always obsessing about facilitating the few rather than the many and there are also a few myths out there that seem to be taken as fact.

The creation of this competition had its genesis in providing a chance for weaker counties while at the same time helping to resolve fixture issues.

Looking after the few:
-how many fixtures are set to facilitate a few dual players? or players on multiple teams?
-how many county championships are not played until late summer in spite of the county being out of the AI early in the summer?? is it because a few players are gone to america?
-Should I/C players be playing U20? I would exempt the pre season comps and maybe say if you had 4 National League appearances and any Championship starts u shouldn't

Myths
-Every player deserves to play in Croke Park. Not being funny but unless u are under 10 who wants to play in an empty stadium? Tailteann Cup etc should be played in a venue appropriate for the crowd. As a player I would much prefer to be in a packed 7,000 venue than 30,000 in CP an it feels like a funeral.
-Provincial Championships.....the biggest myth of all! other than Munster hurling and the lads on the provincial councils who really cares about them. I love Galway v Mayo but i couldn't care less about a Connacht Championship. Scrap them and restructure properly

Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1292 - 29/07/2020 09:27:12    2285648

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Replying To oneoff:  ""the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results'

Is leaving things the way they are not doing this?

The argument that's always throw out is "we don't train all year to play in a B championship" yet by that logic they have no issue with training all year to play two games where they could be hammered in both.

To say that the Tommy Murphy Cup didn't work makes no sense. Take Wicklow won it in 2007 and won best Kildare in Leinster the following year, got to the final that year but lost. In 2009 had their best championship season. Would that havr happened without the Murphy Cup? Antrim wree the same at the time. Got them winning games and championships and gave them something to build on.

I can't never understand how people think the likes of Waterford, Wicklow etc are somehow better off getting 20 plus point beatings off teams.

The recent example people use are Carlow. Yet the only games they actually won werr against other Div 4 teams."
Maybe people just want the opportunity, if you take that away from them then it kills their interest, is that what we want to do?

Again 2nd tier football championships have been tried and failed before through complete lack of interest, so why does anyone think it will be any different this time?

To be fair Carlow beat more than division 4 teams, in fact they beat Kildare (a division 1 team) in the 2018 Leinster QF. I was working with a few people from Carlow at the time and it was like they'd won the All-Ireland, it was great to see.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 29/07/2020 09:58:22    2285651

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Replying To Mayonman:  "There is an over riding problem in the GAA in that we are always obsessing about facilitating the few rather than the many and there are also a few myths out there that seem to be taken as fact.

The creation of this competition had its genesis in providing a chance for weaker counties while at the same time helping to resolve fixture issues.

Looking after the few:
-how many fixtures are set to facilitate a few dual players? or players on multiple teams?
-how many county championships are not played until late summer in spite of the county being out of the AI early in the summer?? is it because a few players are gone to america?
-Should I/C players be playing U20? I would exempt the pre season comps and maybe say if you had 4 National League appearances and any Championship starts u shouldn't

Myths
-Every player deserves to play in Croke Park. Not being funny but unless u are under 10 who wants to play in an empty stadium? Tailteann Cup etc should be played in a venue appropriate for the crowd. As a player I would much prefer to be in a packed 7,000 venue than 30,000 in CP an it feels like a funeral.
-Provincial Championships.....the biggest myth of all! other than Munster hurling and the lads on the provincial councils who really cares about them. I love Galway v Mayo but i couldn't care less about a Connacht Championship. Scrap them and restructure properly"
I think the league finals should be put out to tender the way the champions League is in soccer. That way counties willing can show off a new ground or have a little weekend festival of GAA.

Tailteann cup should be the same but open only to eligible counties and decided a year in advance so it can be marketed in the locality

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 29/07/2020 11:16:51    2285661

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Replying To Htaem:  "Maybe people just want the opportunity, if you take that away from them then it kills their interest, is that what we want to do?

Again 2nd tier football championships have been tried and failed before through complete lack of interest, so why does anyone think it will be any different this time?

To be fair Carlow beat more than division 4 teams, in fact they beat Kildare (a division 1 team) in the 2018 Leinster QF. I was working with a few people from Carlow at the time and it was like they'd won the All-Ireland, it was great to see."
What opportunity? For almost 20 years now every county gets two opportunities. It took Waterford 10 years before they won a qualifier game, and in the almost 10 years since they've only won one more game. Leitrim are in the same bout, the Tommy Murphy Cup in 2006 has been the only real run they've had in a championship since the 90's.

The teams who are to play in it have their chance in the provincial championship. If they're good enough they'll make the final and will have nothing to worry about.

Why do these players have such an issue with it at county level but have no problem at club level? The logic they're using would mean they should all be playing in the senior championship with their clubs, because they should have the ''opportunity''.

Going back many counties didn't field teams in the senior championship but did in the junior championship. When Roscommon won All-Irelands in the 40's they had been playing in the junior championship a few years before and won that.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 402 - 29/07/2020 12:18:23    2285666

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Replying To oneoff:  "What opportunity? For almost 20 years now every county gets two opportunities. It took Waterford 10 years before they won a qualifier game, and in the almost 10 years since they've only won one more game. Leitrim are in the same bout, the Tommy Murphy Cup in 2006 has been the only real run they've had in a championship since the 90's.

The teams who are to play in it have their chance in the provincial championship. If they're good enough they'll make the final and will have nothing to worry about.

Why do these players have such an issue with it at county level but have no problem at club level? The logic they're using would mean they should all be playing in the senior championship with their clubs, because they should have the ''opportunity''.

Going back many counties didn't field teams in the senior championship but did in the junior championship. When Roscommon won All-Irelands in the 40's they had been playing in the junior championship a few years before and won that."
Maybe it is the only 'real run' Leitrim have had since the 90s, yet tellingly people from Leitrim often reminisce about their success in 94 but I've yet to hear anyone talking about their great run in the Tommy Murphy cup. Do you understand that point?

Now I'm not saying we shouldn't change the championship structure, I wouldn't even be against removing the provincials from the All-Ireland (although I think this would be very hard to get through), so long as all teams get an equal go at it, no cutting the div3 & 4 teams adrift which I fear could be the ultimate goal after Tommy Murphy part 2 fails.

What's your view on the future of the championship?

I think we have a great tiered competition in the league and I thibknwe have a great cup competition in the championship. I don't want to see that scrapped in favour of 2 tiered competitions.

Also, I don't think you can compare club to intercounty. Club football is made up from a vast array of players, some with ambitions to play at the top level, some just to keep fit, some for the social aspect, others want to keep playing into their 40s etc. That's why tiers work at that level, it provides for all.

However intercounty is the elite level, reserved for top players, it requires tonnes of dedication and sacrifice and your career tends to be a lot shoter.

Now both are great for different reasons and deserve credit but they aren't comparable.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 29/07/2020 13:41:16    2285682

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Replying To Htaem:  "Maybe it is the only 'real run' Leitrim have had since the 90s, yet tellingly people from Leitrim often reminisce about their success in 94 but I've yet to hear anyone talking about their great run in the Tommy Murphy cup. Do you understand that point?

Now I'm not saying we shouldn't change the championship structure, I wouldn't even be against removing the provincials from the All-Ireland (although I think this would be very hard to get through), so long as all teams get an equal go at it, no cutting the div3 & 4 teams adrift which I fear could be the ultimate goal after Tommy Murphy part 2 fails.

What's your view on the future of the championship?

I think we have a great tiered competition in the league and I thibknwe have a great cup competition in the championship. I don't want to see that scrapped in favour of 2 tiered competitions.

Also, I don't think you can compare club to intercounty. Club football is made up from a vast array of players, some with ambitions to play at the top level, some just to keep fit, some for the social aspect, others want to keep playing into their 40s etc. That's why tiers work at that level, it provides for all.

However intercounty is the elite level, reserved for top players, it requires tonnes of dedication and sacrifice and your career tends to be a lot shoter.

Now both are great for different reasons and deserve credit but they aren't comparable."
I think something that'd be interesting would be just to push the league out a bit.

So Feb and March used for All Ireland club and Provincial competitions.

Start NFL and play it in April, May, June. 3 tiers even. Then move to a knockout championship to finish the season.

Seeded by league position.

Top 16 separated in round 1
Top 8 separated in round 2
Top 4 kept apart before semifinals
Top 2 kept apart before finals.

Played from July on. When a teams knocked out club competitions can start.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 29/07/2020 14:31:21    2285692

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Replying To oneoff:  ""the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results'

Is leaving things the way they are not doing this?

The argument that's always throw out is "we don't train all year to play in a B championship" yet by that logic they have no issue with training all year to play two games where they could be hammered in both.

To say that the Tommy Murphy Cup didn't work makes no sense. Take Wicklow won it in 2007 and won best Kildare in Leinster the following year, got to the final that year but lost. In 2009 had their best championship season. Would that havr happened without the Murphy Cup? Antrim wree the same at the time. Got them winning games and championships and gave them something to build on.

I can't never understand how people think the likes of Waterford, Wicklow etc are somehow better off getting 20 plus point beatings off teams.

The recent example people use are Carlow. Yet the only games they actually won werr against other Div 4 teams."
oneoff, to answer your question; Wicklow beating Kildare in 08 and had an extended run through the qualifier in 09; these had nothing to do with winning the Tommy Murphy cup. It was down to a talented and dedicated panel of players determine to change our fortunes with the help of the greatest Gaelic football manager ever who install belief and confidence in them. Something they never had before and haven't had since. Leitrim won in 94 while Clare won in 92; these victories are still spoken about in these counties. The Tommy Cup or All Ireland B won by Wicklow in the last 30 years are never mentioned.

I agree with another post that you can't compare club and intercounty on the basis that intercounty players are among the elite in the country regardless of what county they play for whereas club has a myriad of players at different levels. Equally, I agree when it is said not to scrap the league and the provincal championship.

At the moment, only the top 5 counties in Division 1 can realistically contemplate winning the All Ireland in football and with Dublin as one of the 5, some could argue there isn't even 5, that leaves 28 counties making up the numbers. Out of those 28, how many can seriously consider winning their provincial championship? We should be looking to produce more teams capable of winning a provincial championship, a second tier competition won't help in this regard.

I acknowledge that there will always be strong counties with a tradition of winning who will win regardless like Kerry/Dublin in football and Kilkenny/Tipperary in hurling but do the GAA want a scenario like exists in hurling where the championship is between the same 8-10 teams and the rest are forgotten about. We can't even get 8 teams of similar standard to compete in the Super 8s in football at the moment. Elitism will ruin the GAA and yet thisis the route that they are going down with these ideas.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1179 - 29/07/2020 14:51:32    2285698

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think something that'd be interesting would be just to push the league out a bit.

So Feb and March used for All Ireland club and Provincial competitions.

Start NFL and play it in April, May, June. 3 tiers even. Then move to a knockout championship to finish the season.

Seeded by league position.

Top 16 separated in round 1
Top 8 separated in round 2
Top 4 kept apart before semifinals
Top 2 kept apart before finals.

Played from July on. When a teams knocked out club competitions can start."
Interesting suggestion Whammo, although personally I like the 4 divisions, just think they're neat and tidy.

I think the league has really grown in importance and should be pushed far more. I don't think moving it to the summer is a bad idea at all, maybe run it along side a straight KO All-Ireland and you'd have a feast of qualifty football over the summer. Also it would leave plenty of room for clubs with a shorter intercounty season.

Now of course there would be plenty of issues to consider and iron out, but it's worth thinking about.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 29/07/2020 15:13:01    2285704

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think something that'd be interesting would be just to push the league out a bit.

So Feb and March used for All Ireland club and Provincial competitions.

Start NFL and play it in April, May, June. 3 tiers even. Then move to a knockout championship to finish the season.

Seeded by league position.

Top 16 separated in round 1
Top 8 separated in round 2
Top 4 kept apart before semifinals
Top 2 kept apart before finals.

Played from July on. When a teams knocked out club competitions can start."
It used to be the case that county boards said the championship will start 2 weeks after the county team finish their season. But then clubs complained that they had no fixed calendar to plan the year, couldn't plan holidays, weddings, stags etc and so county boards started fixing championship games for after the All-Ireland weekend, regardless of how unlikely it was they would be in it. Saying that club games start after the county is eliminated is a fine idea in theory, but like most things it has its pros and cons.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2484 - 29/07/2020 15:22:13    2285706

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