National Forum

Tailteann Cup - Tier 2

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Replying To highbank:  "Divide the league into three divisions. Start it in April. Have an fa cup like knockout competition running on certain weekends, open draw 32 counties for the all Ireland championship. If counties want to retain the provincial championships run them off as pre season comps in March. This tier 2 won't work"
Three divisions would mean 32 teams (if we assume London play and Kilkenny don't).
Div 1: 10 teams
Div 2: 11 teams
Div 3: 11 teams

So 10 weeks at least needed to play off the league interspersed with a 32 team cup competition (needing 5 weeks minimum to declare winner) = 15 weeks in total.

So for example in 2020 this would mean starting the League on the weekend of April 4th/5th.
If it was played non-stop until conclusion that would leave you with a potential AI final on July 12th. Allowing for inevitable break needed at certain stages you're talking maybe end of July....

All grand, but the trouble is you're still not keeping all stakeholders happy. Would club football go on as normal during this hectic period of county football? What about fans? It costs a fair whack as it is to bring the wife and kids to games. Would the GAA be willing to slash prices to ensure all fixtures were well attended?

That's the danger in looking at other sports in terms of solely the structure of competition. Yes it works well structurally. But the PL for example has the population, the sponsorship and the marketing to make it all work. It's almost like the argument about the GAA ever going fully pro at county level. The elite players would love it but in financial terms it would be an act of complete hari kari by the GAA to go down that route. The numbers to sustain it just aren't there.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 7075 - 05/03/2020 17:24:42    2272382

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "What then can be done?

Are the below statements generally true?

- Div 3 and Div 4 teams are content with the current league structure as it gives them competition with other teams of a similar level and a realistic achievable target of success (promotion/league title).

- Div 3 and Div 4 teams don't mind the current Championship structure. To use the FA Cup as a comparison, lower league teams know that realistically they won't win the thing, but there is at least a chance every year to win a few games and that in itself brings fulfillment? e.g. Carlow in 2018

I think I've said on these boards in the past that for a lot of county players it's not winning honors that's the be all and end all. For the likes of us, the training and dedication required to be a county player sounds horrendous. But county players are simply athletically better than us and so being on a county panel gives them the structure and the resources needed to be at peak condition. They enjoy the "journey", "hard yards" to get themselves to the level required for county football.

Now, it's also true to say that it's not for everyone either. I'm sure every county has players who can't commit.

It's all very noble and well for the GAA to be trying to find a solution. But they need to tread very carefully to ensure that what they implement in terms of tier 2 doesn't have the opposite affect of leading to further disillusionment.
This forum alone is proof of it."
You mention carlows run in 2018. If the draw falls right again, and we win out games we can get the semi final or final gain. If we re good enough. What will we miss out on? We drew tyrone that year in the qualifiers and got well beat. So we miss out on one game. Which we re likely to loose. Last year, we drew longford in the qualifiers and exited in front of a crowd of a couple of hundred. And lost. Same result. The qualifiers aren't all glamorous! So my point is, counties can still go on a run in their province and have this competition to further their year. What we have isn't working. The top are so far away from the rest of us, it's crazy. While this mighnt be the perfect solution, something has to change.

old yellar (None) - Posts: 2624 - 05/03/2020 17:59:59    2272387

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Aw it's a conundrum for sure. There isn't one sure fire way to keep everyone happy. Nearly everyone would be in favour of some sort of change but without some compromise it'll never get anywhere.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 7075 - 05/03/2020 18:53:54    2272396

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Replying To old yellar:  "You mention carlows run in 2018. If the draw falls right again, and we win out games we can get the semi final or final gain. If we re good enough. What will we miss out on? We drew tyrone that year in the qualifiers and got well beat. So we miss out on one game. Which we re likely to loose. Last year, we drew longford in the qualifiers and exited in front of a crowd of a couple of hundred. And lost. Same result. The qualifiers aren't all glamorous! So my point is, counties can still go on a run in their province and have this competition to further their year. What we have isn't working. The top are so far away from the rest of us, it's crazy. While this mighnt be the perfect solution, something has to change."
Carlow's season more often than not will still only be 1 or 2 extra games.

Carlow lose to division 3 and 4 teams in the qualifiers regularly.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 05/03/2020 18:59:18    2272398

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Something really bad about this structure is neither competition can get started until after the Provincial finalists are decided.

A team losing in a Leinster or Ulster preliminary round will be sitting on their hands for weeks before their next game in either tier.

It's just a bit rubbish really all round.

It's typical of the GAA, they don't care about the details.

This competition came about from let's have a second tier. Right this will do.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 05/03/2020 19:08:52    2272401

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Something really bad about this structure is neither competition can get started until after the Provincial finalists are decided.

A team losing in a Leinster or Ulster preliminary round will be sitting on their hands for weeks before their next game in either tier.

It's just a bit rubbish really all round.

It's typical of the GAA, they don't care about the details.

This competition came about from let's have a second tier. Right this will do."
Yeah I think if the provincials were done away to start with it would immediately open up more options. But would that be a runner? In my lifetime I've seen Leitrim, Sligo, Clare win and Fermanagh almost win a provincial title. While that chance is there some counties will be reluctant for the provincial competitions to go away.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 7075 - 05/03/2020 19:50:21    2272404

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Carlow's season more often than not will still only be 1 or 2 extra games.

Carlow lose to division 3 and 4 teams in the qualifiers regularly."
Exactly, but these extra games could be a great years gaa! People talk about carlows 2018. Imagine the 2018 year going like this - beat louth, beat kildare, lose to laois in leinster semi, then 4 good games in this cup and come home with the silverware?? We instead got 1 game v Tyrone which we were always going to loose after the laois game. Why not use this cup as a positive thing to win??

old yellar (None) - Posts: 2624 - 05/03/2020 20:10:46    2272406

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Replying To old yellar:  "Exactly, but these extra games could be a great years gaa! People talk about carlows 2018. Imagine the 2018 year going like this - beat louth, beat kildare, lose to laois in leinster semi, then 4 good games in this cup and come home with the silverware?? We instead got 1 game v Tyrone which we were always going to loose after the laois game. Why not use this cup as a positive thing to win??"
Carlow won't win this though. Carlow most seasons will be out before the semis if the top division 3 teams take it seriously.

Carlow are probably 30 to 1 or something to win this thing.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 05/03/2020 21:18:41    2272410

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Replying To old yellar:  "Exactly, but these extra games could be a great years gaa! People talk about carlows 2018. Imagine the 2018 year going like this - beat louth, beat kildare, lose to laois in leinster semi, then 4 good games in this cup and come home with the silverware?? We instead got 1 game v Tyrone which we were always going to loose after the laois game. Why not use this cup as a positive thing to win??"
At least they will be training with a reasonable expectation that their season will finish with a win. I don't think people realise how demoralising it is training knowing your season will end with no chance of silverware and a defeat. Going to watch your team in summer knowing that they will probably be well beat and its the last game of the year doesn't do much to encourage the next generation of footballers, that's if they bother going to watch at all.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2484 - 05/03/2020 21:20:20    2272411

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Carlow won't win this though. Carlow most seasons will be out before the semis if the top division 3 teams take it seriously.

Carlow are probably 30 to 1 or something to win this thing."
If we cant dream to win this, what's the point of us competing in the sam McGuire??
But I agree we d need to be at our v best to compete even with the top div 3 teams. So this competition even makes more sense for us!
Ps 30/1? I ll take a ton each way!!

old yellar (None) - Posts: 2624 - 05/03/2020 21:38:32    2272413

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The All Ireland Football Championship is the only one, that I know of, in the GAA that allows any team regardless of their standard to compete in it. If players, spectators, managers etc. are happy with the concept of tiered competitions in every other competition they play in why cannot be that way in the AIF Championship? A third or fourth division county may get the odd shock win be what has that done for improving the standards in their county - if anything it puts them back as some people would use it to point as an excuse to stick their head in the ground and pretend the reality doesn't exist. The current version is a stepping-stone to eventual fully tiered AIF Championship - its currently not perfect but with anything in the GAA it takes time for people to see the light. Perhaps the inherent advantages in being from one of the Top Tier Counties means that those in the lower divisions will not get there. However I look at my own county, while they never got out of D2 they did get to an All Ireland Semi in 2008 and where are they now - in D4. Why is that? For me it's down to incompetent county boards and lack of investment in underage coaching and structures.
Lets face facts - unlike Hurling (where in parts of the country it has never been played and as a result has inherent issues with development) Football should not have the massive differences in standards that it does. Hopefully this is a step in allowing counties to focus on building sustainable structures that will raise the standard of the game for all.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 982 - 06/03/2020 02:08:07    2272427

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Replying To Soma:  "At least they will be training with a reasonable expectation that their season will finish with a win. I don't think people realise how demoralising it is training knowing your season will end with no chance of silverware and a defeat. Going to watch your team in summer knowing that they will probably be well beat and its the last game of the year doesn't do much to encourage the next generation of footballers, that's if they bother going to watch at all."
Surely this applies to 31 (sorry, 33) counties.

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 06/03/2020 16:20:12    2272516

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Replying To zinny:  "The All Ireland Football Championship is the only one, that I know of, in the GAA that allows any team regardless of their standard to compete in it. If players, spectators, managers etc. are happy with the concept of tiered competitions in every other competition they play in why cannot be that way in the AIF Championship? A third or fourth division county may get the odd shock win be what has that done for improving the standards in their county - if anything it puts them back as some people would use it to point as an excuse to stick their head in the ground and pretend the reality doesn't exist. The current version is a stepping-stone to eventual fully tiered AIF Championship - its currently not perfect but with anything in the GAA it takes time for people to see the light. Perhaps the inherent advantages in being from one of the Top Tier Counties means that those in the lower divisions will not get there. However I look at my own county, while they never got out of D2 they did get to an All Ireland Semi in 2008 and where are they now - in D4. Why is that? For me it's down to incompetent county boards and lack of investment in underage coaching and structures.
Lets face facts - unlike Hurling (where in parts of the country it has never been played and as a result has inherent issues with development) Football should not have the massive differences in standards that it does. Hopefully this is a step in allowing counties to focus on building sustainable structures that will raise the standard of the game for all."
So my problem is that if this doesn't work, then it pushed the idea of a second tier championship for quite a while again.

It's been 12 years since the Tommy Murphy Cup was played.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 07/03/2020 12:56:36    2272598

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Replying To Whammo86:  "So my problem is that if this doesn't work, then it pushed the idea of a second tier championship for quite a while again.

It's been 12 years since the Tommy Murphy Cup was played."
Wow can't believe it's been 12yrs

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 07/03/2020 13:46:36    2272603

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Replying To Whammo86:  "So my problem is that if this doesn't work, then it pushed the idea of a second tier championship for quite a while again.

It's been 12 years since the Tommy Murphy Cup was played."
Did Antrim win the Tommy Murphy Cup one year - I think they did but I'm struggling to remember any of the winners.

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 07/03/2020 14:29:54    2272608

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Replying To neverright:  "Did Antrim win the Tommy Murphy Cup one year - I think they did but I'm struggling to remember any of the winners."
Yeah won it in 2008 beating Wicklow having lost in 2007 to them.

I didn't know who else had won it until I looked it up.

I went to both games but we actually didn't treat those games particularly seriously as fans.

I didn't really know anyone on those teams at the time to know what they meant to the players.

Ulster championship games for me were way more important. The summer we beat Down and drew with Derry was big, the summer we got to the Ulster final and then nearly beat Kerry in a round 4 qualifier was a fantastic year.

We beat Galway in the qualifiers one year then too. All those for me were bigger achievements than the Tommy Murphy win.

Times have changed though and I think players need a better season to reward the work they put in. That's all across the board.

These knockout All Ireland Championships are not that.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 07/03/2020 14:50:39    2272609

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5/10 of our largest pop areas in tier two as it stands, or is it 6.

Canuckgael (USA) - Posts: 25 - 09/03/2020 17:06:26    2273090

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Replying To Canuckgael:  "5/10 of our largest pop areas in tier two as it stands, or is it 6."
Large urban areas also usually have the biggest diversity of sports clubs so I wouldn't be counting an area like Limerick as a large catchment area for football.

I know your statement is technically true but it's also a little misleading

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 09/03/2020 18:31:00    2273112

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!!

lakeboy86 (Westmeath) - Posts: 3 - 27/07/2020 12:29:31    2285439

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah won it in 2008 beating Wicklow having lost in 2007 to them.

I didn't know who else had won it until I looked it up.

I went to both games but we actually didn't treat those games particularly seriously as fans.

I didn't really know anyone on those teams at the time to know what they meant to the players.

Ulster championship games for me were way more important. The summer we beat Down and drew with Derry was big, the summer we got to the Ulster final and then nearly beat Kerry in a round 4 qualifier was a fantastic year.

We beat Galway in the qualifiers one year then too. All those for me were bigger achievements than the Tommy Murphy win.

Times have changed though and I think players need a better season to reward the work they put in. That's all across the board.

These knockout All Ireland Championships are not that."
Would have to agree. Wicklow won the Tommy Murphy Cup in 2007 and lost in the final to Antrim in 2008 but from that period, Wicklow supporters including myself would point to beating Kildare in the Leinster Championship in 2008 in Croke Park and our great run under Micko when we got to the last 12 of the championship beating Fermanagh, Cavan and Down in Aughrim before losing to Kildare in Portlaoise. As a supporter those wins stand out much more than the Tommy Murphy win. Aside from the fact that we won those games, probably against the odds was the atmosphere at the matches which was electric, on the other hand, winning the Tommy Murphy cup in a near empty Croke Park with no atmosphere just didn't match up in any way. I also remember the atmosphere when we drew away to Armagh in the qualifier and lost narrowly to them at home in what turned out to be Micko's last match in charge. I'm not a fan of second tier competitions, I can understand why they are suggested but in reality and in the format that the GAA present them, they don't capture the imagination of the supporters or the players compared to the championship. Wicklow may have no hope of winning the Leinster championship but neither do any of the other 10 teams in Leinster at the moment.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1179 - 27/07/2020 19:23:21    2285497

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