National Forum

Tailteann Cup - Tier 2

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I agree there needs to be change.

I agree that there needs to be a 2 tier championship.

I disagree with the idea that all 2 tier formats are better than what we had last year.

I think we need an improved top tier competition and that from that the second tier gains prestige as the entry point to the top tier.

The proposals that we've gone with are rubbish because the top tier is rubbish. Antrim win the Tailteann cup say. We get to round 1 of 3 of the qualifiers in 2021. We got to round 2 of 4 of the qualifiers last year by beating Louth. Why would teams or fans care more about the Tailteann cup than the current qualifiers. I just don't get the logic.

I really don't think that a shiny cup at the end of it with no previous history and uncertainty over whether it will have any future prestige is a reason to be excited for this competition. That's my problem with it."
Antrims reward for getting to round 2 last year was a 14 point hammering from Kildare though. In 2018 Offaly beat Antrim in Rd 1, and were then beaten the next day. In 2017 Sligo beat Antrim in Rd 1, and were beaten the next day. 2016 Limerick beat Antrim in Rd 1, and were beaten the next day. In 2015 Antrim beat Laois in Rd 1, and lost by 13 points to Fermanagh the next day. There is nothing in them set of results that says the current system is working for teams like Antrim, or that the answer is playing better teams more often. The only option then is to change it so they play teams at a similar level, and that's what this competition is looking to do.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2484 - 03/03/2020 14:16:37    2271967

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Replying To Soma:  "Antrims reward for getting to round 2 last year was a 14 point hammering from Kildare though. In 2018 Offaly beat Antrim in Rd 1, and were then beaten the next day. In 2017 Sligo beat Antrim in Rd 1, and were beaten the next day. 2016 Limerick beat Antrim in Rd 1, and were beaten the next day. In 2015 Antrim beat Laois in Rd 1, and lost by 13 points to Fermanagh the next day. There is nothing in them set of results that says the current system is working for teams like Antrim, or that the answer is playing better teams more often. The only option then is to change it so they play teams at a similar level, and that's what this competition is looking to do."
Well said. I just can't ever understand this idea of how winning a game in the qualifers and getting hammered in the next game is considered a good season.

The qualifers will be in 20 years next year and in that time only three ''non traditional'' have got as far as the semi-finals. More have made the quater finals but were hammered. In another 20 years is anyone going to remember Limerick getting to the quafter final in 2011? Or Clare in 2016?

Carlows run a few year ago is used as another reason againest it. Saying if there was a second tier they wouldn't have gone on that run. When actually the only ames they won were againest other Div 4 teams.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 402 - 03/03/2020 15:57:16    2271994

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "Yeah I hear ya. And look, it's easy for the likes of me to be saying this or that. Donegal are in the current top tier and with the advantages we have in terms of size, resources and playing numbers I'd like to think we'll remain there.

Each to their own and that, but personally I'd rather aim to win a championship than get to a quarter final of the main competition. In years to come nobody will remember who made up the 8 quarter finalists. But with a championship win your name is in the record books and there's a medal of the mantlepiece."
I doubt anyone will confer championship status on this competition The only thing that this competition has that the Tommy Murphy Cup didn't have is an All Star scheme . The Tailteann Cup is scheduled to be played on the weekends of June 20th and 27th and July 4th and 18th. In 2006 Louth won a 16 team Tommy Murphy Cup competition. The final was played before the Dublin Mayo All Ireland semi final and was televised live . The final of the Tailteann Cup is not scheduled to be played before an All Ireland semi final . That year as a result of winning the Tommy Murphy Cup Louth won an all expenses trip to Boston for the squad and management team. How long did the Tommy Murphy Cup last ? The Tailteann Cup is a glorified losers competition. Whammo has hit the nail on the head .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5166 - 03/03/2020 17:13:35    2272010

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Replying To Soma:  "Antrims reward for getting to round 2 last year was a 14 point hammering from Kildare though. In 2018 Offaly beat Antrim in Rd 1, and were then beaten the next day. In 2017 Sligo beat Antrim in Rd 1, and were beaten the next day. 2016 Limerick beat Antrim in Rd 1, and were beaten the next day. In 2015 Antrim beat Laois in Rd 1, and lost by 13 points to Fermanagh the next day. There is nothing in them set of results that says the current system is working for teams like Antrim, or that the answer is playing better teams more often. The only option then is to change it so they play teams at a similar level, and that's what this competition is looking to do."
Ok but the teams Antrim are being beaten by are also losing to Tailteann teams or teams slightly better.

As I've said already I'm in favour of a second tier just not the one that's been implemented.

There's a huge difference.

I think there should be a top 16 and a second 16 playing in 8 team groups in each tier.

Antrim move up if we've progressed to being a top 16 team and get a number of games in the top tier the following season.

The new system is bad for teams at the 9-16 ranked level, they're going to have shorter seasons on average.

The teams ranked 17-24 get slightly more games in this system at those slightly above's expense.

It's not going to help to close the gap from the likes of Cavan to Kerry.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 03/03/2020 17:13:49    2272011

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Very hard for me to get excited about this when we don't even know what teams will be in it yet.

A real tier 2 with a draw made in advance would be much more interesting as we could have the usual pre tournament debates and opinion pieces

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 03/03/2020 18:47:08    2272030

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I still think the below would be better -

- Mostly keep the existing two-stream AI SFC structure, BUT....

-  Extend the Front Door stream (with a Prov Champs' Playoff Rd) and curtail the Back Door, both by one round.

-  Each 1st Qualifier Rd 'pairing' (8 in all, pre 2020) is also drawn with a Prov SF loser to form 8 3-team round-robin groups instead (teams playing each other once).

-  Top 2 from each group joins 4 Prov Final losers in 20-team KO Rd 2 (8 group 2nds and 2 worst 1sts play away).

-  10 Rd 2 winners join 2 Champs' Playoff losers in 12-team KO Rd 3 (6 lowest NFL-ranked of 10 Rd 2 winners play away).

-  6 Rd 3 winners join 2 unbeaten Prov Champs in the AI KO QFs (4 Prov Champs, or the teams that beat them, host at own Prov neutral venues).


PROs above include:

1) Prov lopsided imbalance neutralised as progress via Front Door is more modest.

2) 6 AI QF berths via equitable Back Door.

3) Back Door path streamlined to 3 rds.

4) All 32 counties are guaranteed 3 games.

5) Potential for longer run by less developed counties.

6) Option A /Start with 4 Provs of 8.

7) Option B /Tier 2 limited to 10 Rd 2 losers.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1824 - 03/03/2020 19:20:58    2272042

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Ok but the teams Antrim are being beaten by are also losing to Tailteann teams or teams slightly better.

As I've said already I'm in favour of a second tier just not the one that's been implemented.

There's a huge difference.

I think there should be a top 16 and a second 16 playing in 8 team groups in each tier.

Antrim move up if we've progressed to being a top 16 team and get a number of games in the top tier the following season.

The new system is bad for teams at the 9-16 ranked level, they're going to have shorter seasons on average.

The teams ranked 17-24 get slightly more games in this system at those slightly above's expense.

It's not going to help to close the gap from the likes of Cavan to Kerry."
I wonder if more than 2 tiers is better - with 2 tiers, you'd have 16th ranked playiing the likes of Dubs one year and Waterford the next.
To get 'even match' schedules - amend NFL 8-8-8-8 to 9-9-9-5 or 7-7-7-7-4 (small div 5 plays double round) - one up/one down plus 2 playoffs in each div (2nd hosts 2nd last div above; 3rd bottom hosts 3rd div below; for other 2 up/stay up).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1824 - 03/03/2020 23:37:01    2272095

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Look any championship that you qualify for by LOSING a game is doomed
It will quickly become known As the battle of the losers .. or the top loser
Look it will die a death in a few years ... or even year 1
Out of curiosity will there be a fine for failing to
Field a team ? As I can see that happening

KeshGFC (Fermanagh) - Posts: 240 - 04/03/2020 12:53:02    2272166

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Replying To KeshGFC:  "Look any championship that you qualify for by LOSING a game is doomed
It will quickly become known As the battle of the losers .. or the top loser
Look it will die a death in a few years ... or even year 1
Out of curiosity will there be a fine for failing to
Field a team ? As I can see that happening"
If it was done that the Div 3 and 4 teams were put straight into it they'd complain about that as well.

They're littleary getting it both ways here. Have their change in the top grade, something they think they have a right to, and get a second chance.

Also by your logic winning the All-Ireland if you've lost in your province is pointless.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 402 - 04/03/2020 13:14:41    2272170

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Replying To oneoff:  "If it was done that the Div 3 and 4 teams were put straight into it they'd complain about that as well.

They're littleary getting it both ways here. Have their change in the top grade, something they think they have a right to, and get a second chance.

Also by your logic winning the All-Ireland if you've lost in your province is pointless."
mmm no

KeshGFC (Fermanagh) - Posts: 240 - 04/03/2020 13:42:54    2272180

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Replying To KeshGFC:  "mmm no"
How isn't it?

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 402 - 04/03/2020 15:50:06    2272206

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Replying To oneoff:  "How isn't it?"
You rejoin teams that haven't lost.

The B championship is only available to losing teams.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 04/03/2020 16:27:05    2272214

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Replying To Whammo86:  "You rejoin teams that haven't lost.

The B championship is only available to losing teams."
Not necessarily. 2010 for example all four All-Ireland semi-finalests had lost earlier in the championship.

As i said if teams were just put into the second championship or whatever you want to call it they'd cry about that as well.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 402 - 04/03/2020 16:50:26    2272218

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Replying To oneoff:  "Not necessarily. 2010 for example all four All-Ireland semi-finalests had lost earlier in the championship.

As i said if teams were just put into the second championship or whatever you want to call it they'd cry about that as well."
They rejoined though at the quarter final stage having won their way to there and all 4 teams defeated a top team to win out the main competition.

I can't see how you can't see that to be a very different situation to the Tailteann cup.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 04/03/2020 17:18:55    2272225

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So when people talk about avoiding relegation from Division 2, they speak of 2 benefits:
1: Playing in Division 2 next season
2: Avoid the Tier 2 Championship

Its the Championship which Counties don't want to be playing in. As previously stated, its the Competition for losers.

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1073 - 05/03/2020 08:22:08    2272291

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What then can be done?

Are the below statements generally true?

- Div 3 and Div 4 teams are content with the current league structure as it gives them competition with other teams of a similar level and a realistic achievable target of success (promotion/league title).

- Div 3 and Div 4 teams don't mind the current Championship structure. To use the FA Cup as a comparison, lower league teams know that realistically they won't win the thing, but there is at least a chance every year to win a few games and that in itself brings fulfillment? e.g. Carlow in 2018

I think I've said on these boards in the past that for a lot of county players it's not winning honors that's the be all and end all. For the likes of us, the training and dedication required to be a county player sounds horrendous. But county players are simply athletically better than us and so being on a county panel gives them the structure and the resources needed to be at peak condition. They enjoy the "journey", "hard yards" to get themselves to the level required for county football.

Now, it's also true to say that it's not for everyone either. I'm sure every county has players who can't commit.

It's all very noble and well for the GAA to be trying to find a solution. But they need to tread very carefully to ensure that what they implement in terms of tier 2 doesn't have the opposite affect of leading to further disillusionment.
This forum alone is proof of it.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 7075 - 05/03/2020 11:21:10    2272315

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "What then can be done?

Are the below statements generally true?

- Div 3 and Div 4 teams are content with the current league structure as it gives them competition with other teams of a similar level and a realistic achievable target of success (promotion/league title).

- Div 3 and Div 4 teams don't mind the current Championship structure. To use the FA Cup as a comparison, lower league teams know that realistically they won't win the thing, but there is at least a chance every year to win a few games and that in itself brings fulfillment? e.g. Carlow in 2018

I think I've said on these boards in the past that for a lot of county players it's not winning honors that's the be all and end all. For the likes of us, the training and dedication required to be a county player sounds horrendous. But county players are simply athletically better than us and so being on a county panel gives them the structure and the resources needed to be at peak condition. They enjoy the "journey", "hard yards" to get themselves to the level required for county football.

Now, it's also true to say that it's not for everyone either. I'm sure every county has players who can't commit.

It's all very noble and well for the GAA to be trying to find a solution. But they need to tread very carefully to ensure that what they implement in terms of tier 2 doesn't have the opposite affect of leading to further disillusionment.
This forum alone is proof of it."
I feel the best move forward is to learn from every other sporting organisation across the world and have the Primary Competition tier based. i.e. 3 leagues run from late April to August/Sept. Master your level, move up the leagues.
Top 4 teams in the Top division go into the All-Ireland semi-final and so on.

I'd also like to see a Cup run in parallel, like the FA Cup, but because of our structure this would have to be the Provincial Championship.

Also, like the international breaks in Soccer, have club breaks every few weeks where Championship matches must be played. This gives every GAA player be it Club or County a defined season.

The biggest issue with all of the above is that it does not satisfies everybody's needs, wants or desires, but there is no competition structure which will do that. So, you have to go with something which is fair and rewards performance and I think this is close. I base it all on how English Football is structured. I never hear them giving out about their season or competitions. We never stop giving out about ours!

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1073 - 05/03/2020 12:20:33    2272327

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Divide the league into three divisions. Start it in April. Have an fa cup like knockout competition running on certain weekends, open draw 32 counties for the all Ireland championship. If counties want to retain the provincial championships run them off as pre season comps in March. This tier 2 won't work

highbank (Leitrim) - Posts: 8 - 05/03/2020 16:05:16    2272369

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As an Antrim fan what I'd like is that if we got promoted from division 4 to go straight into a division 3 campaign.

Forget the Ulster championship.

2 league campaigns a year with club breaks scheduled throughout April to September would be my ideal season.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3111 - 05/03/2020 17:09:31    2272379

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Replying To KeshGFC:  "Look any championship that you qualify for by LOSING a game is doomed
It will quickly become known As the battle of the losers .. or the top loser
Look it will die a death in a few years ... or even year 1
Out of curiosity will there be a fine for failing to
Field a team ? As I can see that happening"
Hit the nail on the head....you cant have a successful competition which your participation is based on losing in the main competition.

As I said earlier, being from longford, I do think we need something and probably a 3 tier, which I suggest is already in place at club level and gaa people are all familiar with. Based on your league, you enter the senior, intermediate or junior all Ireland competition. This competition, relevant to you, will be your sole focus.

The way it is now, once your beat in your provincial championship, your players are gone on hols or playing is US before the club championship start. How has hierarchy cant ses that amazes me. Apparently a survey showed counties really didnt want this model, but they're going ahead with it anyway.

Longfordbaz (Longford) - Posts: 145 - 05/03/2020 17:18:53    2272380

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