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KillingFields, just to clarify I didn't mean that the stadium should not have been re developed, that is a matter for the Cork Co. Board. But the thing should have been costed properly and rather than ploughing on like the children's hospital, a bit of financial oversight included in the process.
Munster is well served with large stadiums already if you ask me, with Thurles, Limerick, Killarney. Was another big stadium really needed?
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 724 - 06/08/2020 18:45:52I dont think you can say it wasnt costed properly. Yes there was an over run but thats just unfortunately very typical for large scale construction in ireland.
Cork City needed a large stadium. It will be used extensively for other purposes Will it not with the corporate facilities on offer in the stadium?
Munster does have Limerick, Thurles and Killarney but the republics second city needs a large stadium
It could be argued whilst not seeing the pandemic coming the GAA's stadium builds have been out of date for years. In most cases the priority at inter county stadiums was to increase the capacity as much as possible over practical health and safety measures.
They could be classed as comfort but essential facilities have moreso than ever become a requirement. It's highly unlikely terrace areas will get the green light this year and I'd say over 80% of the stadiums won't pass the basic hygiene requirements to have even 25% capacity for the championship games.
With a pandemic still with us I can only imagine the issues at some of our stadiums when you couldn't even wash your hands with hot water and soap. It is why I reckon we'll only see three or four stadiums (if even that) used and the vast majority of Ulster/Leinster games will take place in Croke Park. I also predict all the Munster hurling/football games will be played in Cork and obviously all the All Ireland series games take place in Croker anyhow.
sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 575 - 06/08/2020 15:51:10
I agree largely with what Ive seen in relation to the the North East of the country. Dublin (Croke Park aside) having Parnell Park as their de-facto stadium is farcical in this age. In Meath we have a good pitch surface and location with Pairc Tailteann but a very tired and outdated stadium from the 50s that is a health and safety hazard in the condition of the toilet facilities, the very awkward steps and seating facilities that Ive seen dozens of people barely able to climb and manouvere around. Although this is currently being rectified and Pairc Tailteann is getting a very notable upgrade sometime in the next year or two to the next twenty years if we're honest about it. It'll happen when it happens.
Id also say in relation to Parnell and Navan, on a big game day they are a potential for crushes. Parnell in particular can be very claustrophobic and clammy particularly behind the goals. Its like a bunker.
Notwithstanding Navan/Parnell; Drogheda is on another level again. I wont even go into that. But in these three counties there is about 2 million people. If you throw in Kildare with Newbridge you have 2.2 million. And all of these county grounds (renovation plans aside) are very poor. Leinster needs a new regional top class stadium. Im not calling for it to be in my region, but anywhere suitable in Leinster will do
Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 293 - 06/08/2020 17:58:57But Parnell park isnt dubs stadium for games. they havent played football their in quite some time and wont any time soon.
I do agree Leinster needs a proper modern 25000 capacity stadium somewhere provincially with ease of access
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1636 - 06/08/2020 22:50:32
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Replying To StoreysTash: "Re-development of Croke Park was the right thing to do. We need our flagship stadium in our capital city.
Pairc Ui Chaoimh was a pure vanity project in a bad location (based on my one and only ever visit to it, and I won't be back) which the overall GAA now has to foot the bill for. It will be used a handful of times a year and might be full once or twice a year. The white seats fit in with the colour of elephant it is.
What was needed was a 45k stadium in Leinster outside of Dublin, and upgrades for smaller/decrepit stadiums such as Navan/Drogheda/Walsh Park/etc, as well as a general improvement work for toilet and access improvements for many stadiums. The day of no working hand dryer or soap, and cold water, has to be over now.
I hope the 1st thing Chadwicks do in Wexford Park is improve the toilet facilities, that is for sure. Even a light in the cubicles would be a good start..." Tullamore has a fine main stand which would be a good start for a regional stadium but in terms of access ide say Portlaoise is one of the best connected and most central towns in the country
Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 07/08/2020 00:41:14
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Replying To KillingFields: "KillingFields, just to clarify I didn't mean that the stadium should not have been re developed, that is a matter for the Cork Co. Board. But the thing should have been costed properly and rather than ploughing on like the children's hospital, a bit of financial oversight included in the process.
Munster is well served with large stadiums already if you ask me, with Thurles, Limerick, Killarney. Was another big stadium really needed?
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 724 - 06/08/2020 18:45:52I dont think you can say it wasnt costed properly. Yes there was an over run but thats just unfortunately very typical for large scale construction in ireland.
Cork City needed a large stadium. It will be used extensively for other purposes Will it not with the corporate facilities on offer in the stadium?
Munster does have Limerick, Thurles and Killarney but the republics second city needs a large stadium
It could be argued whilst not seeing the pandemic coming the GAA's stadium builds have been out of date for years. In most cases the priority at inter county stadiums was to increase the capacity as much as possible over practical health and safety measures.
They could be classed as comfort but essential facilities have moreso than ever become a requirement. It's highly unlikely terrace areas will get the green light this year and I'd say over 80% of the stadiums won't pass the basic hygiene requirements to have even 25% capacity for the championship games.
With a pandemic still with us I can only imagine the issues at some of our stadiums when you couldn't even wash your hands with hot water and soap. It is why I reckon we'll only see three or four stadiums (if even that) used and the vast majority of Ulster/Leinster games will take place in Croke Park. I also predict all the Munster hurling/football games will be played in Cork and obviously all the All Ireland series games take place in Croker anyhow.
sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 575 - 06/08/2020 15:51:10
I agree largely with what Ive seen in relation to the the North East of the country. Dublin (Croke Park aside) having Parnell Park as their de-facto stadium is farcical in this age. In Meath we have a good pitch surface and location with Pairc Tailteann but a very tired and outdated stadium from the 50s that is a health and safety hazard in the condition of the toilet facilities, the very awkward steps and seating facilities that Ive seen dozens of people barely able to climb and manouvere around. Although this is currently being rectified and Pairc Tailteann is getting a very notable upgrade sometime in the next year or two to the next twenty years if we're honest about it. It'll happen when it happens.
Id also say in relation to Parnell and Navan, on a big game day they are a potential for crushes. Parnell in particular can be very claustrophobic and clammy particularly behind the goals. Its like a bunker.
Notwithstanding Navan/Parnell; Drogheda is on another level again. I wont even go into that. But in these three counties there is about 2 million people. If you throw in Kildare with Newbridge you have 2.2 million. And all of these county grounds (renovation plans aside) are very poor. Leinster needs a new regional top class stadium. Im not calling for it to be in my region, but anywhere suitable in Leinster will do
Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 293 - 06/08/2020 17:58:57But Parnell park isnt dubs stadium for games. they havent played football their in quite some time and wont any time soon.
I do agree Leinster needs a proper modern 25000 capacity stadium somewhere provincially with ease of access" But Parnell park isnt dubs stadium for games. they havent played football their in quite some time
The GAA, and more to the point Dublin, isn't only about senior inter-county football. Parnell Park is Dublin's stadium. Besides being the HQ of the Dublin County Board, it is the home of the Dublin GAA hurling, football, camogie and ladies' football teams at all levels of competition; the exception being senior inter-county football. Dublin county championships and other competitions also take place in Parnell Park every year.
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1115 - 07/08/2020 08:49:15
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Replying To StoreysTash: "Re-development of Croke Park was the right thing to do. We need our flagship stadium in our capital city.
Pairc Ui Chaoimh was a pure vanity project in a bad location (based on my one and only ever visit to it, and I won't be back) which the overall GAA now has to foot the bill for. It will be used a handful of times a year and might be full once or twice a year. The white seats fit in with the colour of elephant it is.
What was needed was a 45k stadium in Leinster outside of Dublin, and upgrades for smaller/decrepit stadiums such as Navan/Drogheda/Walsh Park/etc, as well as a general improvement work for toilet and access improvements for many stadiums. The day of no working hand dryer or soap, and cold water, has to be over now.
I hope the 1st thing Chadwicks do in Wexford Park is improve the toilet facilities, that is for sure. Even a light in the cubicles would be a good start..." An honest post.
supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2161 - 07/08/2020 11:02:39
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Replying To StoreysTash: "KillingFields, just to clarify I didn't mean that the stadium should not have been re developed, that is a matter for the Cork Co. Board. But the thing should have been costed properly and rather than ploughing on like the children's hospital, a bit of financial oversight included in the process.
Munster is well served with large stadiums already if you ask me, with Thurles, Limerick, Killarney. Was another big stadium really needed?" The Stadium was already high capacity, it was originally 50,000 when it first opened in the 70s now it's 45000. What do you expect Cork to knock it down and only play in Pairc Ui Rinn and play every match Championship match outside of Cork?
DuhallowRed (Cork) - Posts: 140 - 07/08/2020 12:17:00
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The GAA, and more to the point Dublin, isn't only about senior inter-county football. Parnell Park is Dublin's stadium. Besides being the HQ of the Dublin County Board, it is the home of the Dublin GAA hurling, football, camogie and ladies' football teams at all levels of competition; the exception being senior inter-county football. Dublin county championships and other competitions also take place in Parnell Park every year.
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 980 - 07/08/2020 08:49:15 But how much should you be investing in a stadium that mainly is used for club games only
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1636 - 07/08/2020 12:47:17
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KillingFields,cost overruns are typical when organisations know somebody else will foot the bill.also cost overruns tend to be associated with what is discovered during the project,not a sort of "hmmm.....not sure" when questioned on why it cost so much more as has happened here.
nobody is saying PUC should not have been redeveloped (I have been in the city once but i know Cork people who say there were alternatives).but was what was built needed and certainly without any apparent cost benefit analysis?build it and they will come is the biggest myth ever
breezy is spot on,portlaoise was the logical place for a larger stadium.well connected,well located,etc.
perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3841 - 08/08/2020 10:19:05
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Replying To DuhallowRed: "The Stadium was already high capacity, it was originally 50,000 when it first opened in the 70s now it's 45000. What do you expect Cork to knock it down and only play in Pairc Ui Rinn and play every match Championship match outside of Cork?" No, what I expected was
1. A properly costed stadium in line with the number of big games it will hold every year. It didn't need to be a behemoth for a handful of games and maybe a concert here and there?
2. For GAA members/supporters/etc not to have to pick up the cost and management of the financial affairs. What would you be saying if it was in Leitrim or Longford? "Here's our cash lads"?
I am not one who thinks that a fine stadium should not be built, but it has to be realistic for what is needed for in the first place.
A 50k stadium in somewhere like Portlaoise or Tullamore, which are probably within 2-2.5 hrs drive for most of the country, are on or near train lines, etc would have been money well spent. This was not.
I'm not somebody who thinks GAA people should be sitting on concrete benches or the toilets don't need to be well fitted out, I love seeing stadiums being developed but there has to be a bit of reality as to location, cost and value for money.
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 864 - 08/08/2020 11:29:46
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KillingFields,cost overruns are typical when organisations know somebody else will foot the bill.also cost overruns tend to be associated with what is discovered during the project,not a sort of "hmmm.....not sure" when questioned on why it cost so much more as has happened here.
nobody is saying PUC should not have been redeveloped (I have been in the city once but i know Cork people who say there were alternatives).but was what was built needed and certainly without any apparent cost benefit analysis?build it and they will come is the biggest myth ever
breezy is spot on,portlaoise was the logical place for a larger stadium.well connected,well located,etc.
perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3734 - 08/08/2020 10:19:05saying no cost analysis was done is crazy and cost over runs are just part and parcel of a lot of projects in ireland which is crazy.
Portlaoise would make sense for a larger stadium but cork needed a stadium. Cork can attract concerts etc
Provincial leinster needs a modern fit for use stadium. totally agree.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1636 - 08/08/2020 11:31:39
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I'm all for updating PUC with modern seating and amenities but the second tier was probably a bit much and I'm sure would have added significantly to the cost.
Going forward I think it's facilities rather than capacity that the GAA need to look at especially ensuring each county has 1 nice stand where you can get a sandwich and a coffee that will be comfortable for all those low capacity club and league games in the crap weather.
The terraces that get used only twice a year in the summer are fine as long as they are safe and have enough toilets
Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 08/08/2020 12:25:39
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Replying To Breezy: "I'm all for updating PUC with modern seating and amenities but the second tier was probably a bit much and I'm sure would have added significantly to the cost.
Going forward I think it's facilities rather than capacity that the GAA need to look at especially ensuring each county has 1 nice stand where you can get a sandwich and a coffee that will be comfortable for all those low capacity club and league games in the crap weather.
The terraces that get used only twice a year in the summer are fine as long as they are safe and have enough toilets" Exactly the point. Upgrade by all means, improve all the time. But don't go and build a 75% Croke Park for the sake of it.
I would also say that there is a need in every county (or for 2 neighbouring counties to share) for a 4G pitch with a small stadium with a capacity of around 7-10k. This would allow matches to be played all year round, could hold a county final, and it would be a long way ahead of having to try to hurl on Wexford Park or Gaelic Grounds in the winter with the ball stuck in the muck.
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 864 - 08/08/2020 16:23:57
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Replying To StoreysTash: "No, what I expected was
1. A properly costed stadium in line with the number of big games it will hold every year. It didn't need to be a behemoth for a handful of games and maybe a concert here and there?
2. For GAA members/supporters/etc not to have to pick up the cost and management of the financial affairs. What would you be saying if it was in Leitrim or Longford? "Here's our cash lads"?
I am not one who thinks that a fine stadium should not be built, but it has to be realistic for what is needed for in the first place.
A 50k stadium in somewhere like Portlaoise or Tullamore, which are probably within 2-2.5 hrs drive for most of the country, are on or near train lines, etc would have been money well spent. This was not.
I'm not somebody who thinks GAA people should be sitting on concrete benches or the toilets don't need to be well fitted out, I love seeing stadiums being developed but there has to be a bit of reality as to location, cost and value for money." Problem is can towns like Portloaise cope with capacity of a higher stadium, there is more things that must be considered then simply building a stadium in a small town
DuhallowRed (Cork) - Posts: 140 - 08/08/2020 21:47:07
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Replying To DuhallowRed: "Problem is can towns like Portloaise cope with capacity of a higher stadium, there is more things that must be considered then simply building a stadium in a small town" There's no doubt Croke Park is a serious stadium, rebuilt in the mid 1990's in four stages at a cost of 100 million plus, it is now reported that the stadium is debt free, some achievement albeit with the help of other events taking place there along with some big name international musical concerts being staged there as well. It's said that it takes 35 to 37000 fans passing through the turnstiles for the stadium to break even.
Páirc Uí Chaoimh went through a rebuild programme in 2017 at a cost of 95 to 100 million with 30 million of an overspend they say, so it's now 30 million in the red, that's ok as those things happen, just look at the childrens hospital.
Hard lessons will be learned by everyone because of Covid - 19, with the benefit of hind sight will we ever see planning permission being given again to build a stadium like Croke Park or Páirc Uí Chaoimh unless certain conditions are met to cover unforeseen circumstances like the virus that is causing havoc to its finances.
Because of covid -19 it's said the gaa will loose something like 65 million approx. this year.
supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2161 - 09/08/2020 00:31:57
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Replying To perfect10: "KillingFields,cost overruns are typical when organisations know somebody else will foot the bill.also cost overruns tend to be associated with what is discovered during the project,not a sort of "hmmm.....not sure" when questioned on why it cost so much more as has happened here.
nobody is saying PUC should not have been redeveloped (I have been in the city once but i know Cork people who say there were alternatives).but was what was built needed and certainly without any apparent cost benefit analysis?build it and they will come is the biggest myth ever
breezy is spot on,portlaoise was the logical place for a larger stadium.well connected,well located,etc." Well said, the vanity project of a guy who dictated at all levels of the GAA & the GAA dished out €30,000,000 to the project with no project management or oversight & were then afraid to ask questions.
A massive problem within the GAA, is people there too long & who dictate policy & people are afraid to challenge them, with that comes dictatorship, strikes, egos that become so big that they think they can't be questioned or held accountable. This debt is only starting now in the midst of what could become the biggest financial & economic crash ever, it will come back to haunt some. But you reap what you sow.
The biggest joke on this, is that a leading GAA official came out with one figure, a leading Cork official came out with another figure & appointed duo came out with a third figure, they don't even seem to know what it cost.
Meanwhile the great one has disappeared, no accountability.
moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 1049 - 09/08/2020 13:38:50
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Replying To StoreysTash: "No, what I expected was
1. A properly costed stadium in line with the number of big games it will hold every year. It didn't need to be a behemoth for a handful of games and maybe a concert here and there?
2. For GAA members/supporters/etc not to have to pick up the cost and management of the financial affairs. What would you be saying if it was in Leitrim or Longford? "Here's our cash lads"?
I am not one who thinks that a fine stadium should not be built, but it has to be realistic for what is needed for in the first place.
A 50k stadium in somewhere like Portlaoise or Tullamore, which are probably within 2-2.5 hrs drive for most of the country, are on or near train lines, etc would have been money well spent. This was not.
I'm not somebody who thinks GAA people should be sitting on concrete benches or the toilets don't need to be well fitted out, I love seeing stadiums being developed but there has to be a bit of reality as to location, cost and value for money." Good post.
moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 1049 - 09/08/2020 13:41:27
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Replying To DuhallowRed: "Problem is can towns like Portloaise cope with capacity of a higher stadium, there is more things that must be considered then simply building a stadium in a small town" PortLoalse has over double the population of Thurles so I'm sure a 30/35k stadium would be fine if Thurles can hold 50odd
Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 09/08/2020 14:31:03
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Replying To moc.dna: "Well said, the vanity project of a guy who dictated at all levels of the GAA & the GAA dished out €30,000,000 to the project with no project management or oversight & were then afraid to ask questions.
A massive problem within the GAA, is people there too long & who dictate policy & people are afraid to challenge them, with that comes dictatorship, strikes, egos that become so big that they think they can't be questioned or held accountable. This debt is only starting now in the midst of what could become the biggest financial & economic crash ever, it will come back to haunt some. But you reap what you sow.
The biggest joke on this, is that a leading GAA official came out with one figure, a leading Cork official came out with another figure & appointed duo came out with a third figure, they don't even seem to know what it cost.
Meanwhile the great one has disappeared, no accountability." colm o rourke (who i rarely agree with) said on the rte gaa podcast that the gaa need to upgrade facilities all over the country,but that puc was the biggest waste of money in gaa history and should be bulldozed!while he was being facetious on the last point,he did say it was a sinful waste of money and it would only be full if they get Michael Jackson back!
his general point was the same as ours,improve facilities but don't go overboard.
perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3841 - 09/08/2020 15:07:35
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Replying To perfect10: "colm o rourke (who i rarely agree with) said on the rte gaa podcast that the gaa need to upgrade facilities all over the country,but that puc was the biggest waste of money in gaa history and should be bulldozed!while he was being facetious on the last point,he did say it was a sinful waste of money and it would only be full if they get Michael Jackson back!
his general point was the same as ours,improve facilities but don't go overboard." The GAA need to invest in a couple of 15,000 capacity covered stadiums with corporate boxes and rentals at $400 euros a pop per game for groups who want to rent. This will relieve congestion in schedule as well. No weather cancellation and the club player playing club inter county in proper conditions in the new revised proposed seasons.
I have said before that a consortium some years ago looked at four hockey franchises. The driver was a good Irishman (knew him) who passed away and it never happened. The business model was complete. If that was a chance, our national games would be a money spinner. All games should be televised for those who support the game and could not afford the ticket. It could be improved also. If all tickets are not sold a few days before, come up with a system that gets them to kids. Two or three kids can bring one adult.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 979 - 09/08/2020 15:40:47
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The GAA need to invest in a couple of 15,000 capacity covered stadiums with corporate boxes and rentals at $400 euros a pop per game for groups who want to rent. This will relieve congestion in schedule as well. No weather cancellation and the club player playing club inter county in proper conditions in the new revised proposed seasons.
I have said before that a consortium some years ago looked at four hockey franchises. The driver was a good Irishman (knew him) who passed away and it never happened. The business model was complete. If that was a chance, our national games would be a money spinner. All games should be televised for those who support the game and could not afford the ticket. It could be improved also. If all tickets are not sold a few days before, come up with a system that gets them to kids. Two or three kids can bring one adult.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 796 - 09/08/2020 15:40:47you would be paying a lot more than 400€ a pop for inter county games for corporate box usage.
You could easily pay 1000 for a game with 10-12 seats considering food, drink etc included.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1636 - 09/08/2020 17:44:01
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Replying To Breezy: "PortLoalse has over double the population of Thurles so I'm sure a 30/35k stadium would be fine if Thurles can hold 50odd" Ever seen traffic in Thurles, it's a nightmare, and you have to park miles away if you drive
DuhallowRed (Cork) - Posts: 140 - 09/08/2020 18:25:10
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