Meath Forum

New Planning Regulations

(Oldest Posts First)

Reading into the new planning regulations coming into affect next year there will be no planning granted to anyone who does not own 25 acres of land? Councils are trying to get people to move into towns or clusters. Will this not affectingly kill the Gaa in rural areas?? Sons or daughters will not be allowed build in their own community where they have grown up? I thought there would be more uproar about this. Maybe I'm reading into it wrong. Has anyone else seen this or can they shed any light on it....

boeder (Meath) - Posts: 53 - 09/11/2020 21:51:04    2307019

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Replying To boeder:  "Reading into the new planning regulations coming into affect next year there will be no planning granted to anyone who does not own 25 acres of land? Councils are trying to get people to move into towns or clusters. Will this not affectingly kill the Gaa in rural areas?? Sons or daughters will not be allowed build in their own community where they have grown up? I thought there would be more uproar about this. Maybe I'm reading into it wrong. Has anyone else seen this or can they shed any light on it...."
That's my understanding of it. Absolutely ridiculous. Going to destroy rural GAA and the worst is that in the biggest population centre of all in Dublin they won't build at all and just have it sprawling out

LeitrimRoyal99 (Meath) - Posts: 833 - 09/11/2020 22:31:51    2307047

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Fully agree,, complete Blight on rural parts of the county. I understand a need for control. My major problem with it is The manner it's begin brought in. It was slipped in under the radar Christmas week last year. Then with Covid there was no real time for public consultation. If your club has no area classed as a village or town, then in theory will be down to farmers in that area. not local teachers, builders, or whatever. All of who have an entitlement to live and work where there from.

Jimmycricket (Meath) - Posts: 72 - 10/11/2020 08:24:20    2307090

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Replying To boeder:  "Reading into the new planning regulations coming into affect next year there will be no planning granted to anyone who does not own 25 acres of land? Councils are trying to get people to move into towns or clusters. Will this not affectingly kill the Gaa in rural areas?? Sons or daughters will not be allowed build in their own community where they have grown up? I thought there would be more uproar about this. Maybe I'm reading into it wrong. Has anyone else seen this or can they shed any light on it...."
Does this apply to local needs?

Crinigan (Meath) - Posts: 926 - 10/11/2020 10:53:23    2307135

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Would you mind posting a link to these regulations? I have heard about them, but haven't read them yet.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous, not only from a GAA perspective, but also an economical point of view.

I'm no expert, and for this just doesn't make sense. With most millennials of the age to buy, forcing people to move into towns would cause more demand, and with short supply, anyone can see the potential of prices going up, leading to a further divide in classes, i.e. only certain people will be able to afford.

Personally, and I say this with tongue in cheek, there is something else going on, other than this sheer short-sightedness, and complete disrespect of the rural community.

notanadmin (Derry) - Posts: 3 - 10/11/2020 11:58:05    2307163

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I know a large number of rural GAA clubs and individuals made submissions last February on this (approx 2000 submissions). This policy is due to come into force from next April when the new county development plan is adapted. The local Councillors are due to meet next week to discuss the new development plan. They are due to vote on this by the end of next week. The Councillors need to be lobbied this week about this. The Councillors have the power to stop this. This will have a detriment effect on rural GAA clubs and rural Meath. The effect of this rural policy will see our young population having to relocate to larger towns as they will not be able to obtain planning permission on family land where the land holding is less than 25 acres. The population of rural Meath will slowly decline. Small rural primary schools will close as declining population gives them no other option. The rural population will grow older and isolation will become a problem. This will see the town GAA clubs getting bigger and stronger. Rural Meath will never be the same again its community spirit which is back boned by the GAA will be broken by this new policy. You will not see this effect immediately but within 10 yrs the problems highlighted above will be common place.

runitoff (Meath) - Posts: 4 - 10/11/2020 12:36:32    2307175

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This is absolutely terrible if implemented. A rural group must rise up and defend peoples rights.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17035 - 10/11/2020 12:41:05    2307177

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Replying To Crinigan:  "Does this apply to local needs?"
Yes. And again, if I'm reading correctly, it basically abolishes local needs to certain areas only in clusters or towns. Your one off house builds will stop and without doubt reduce rural parish populations dramatically going forward.

I know some areas of North Meath did organise community meetings but as one poster said it was slipped in Christmas week not giving much time. Then the world has changed dramatically since this so people's focus has been elsewhere.

The reason I raised it is a family member of mine wanted to build in the field beside our home place. Went to an Architect last week to get the ball rolling and was told he's cutting it fine time wise before the regulations come into force.

boeder (Meath) - Posts: 53 - 10/11/2020 13:14:14    2307189

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Replying To boeder:  "Yes. And again, if I'm reading correctly, it basically abolishes local needs to certain areas only in clusters or towns. Your one off house builds will stop and without doubt reduce rural parish populations dramatically going forward.

I know some areas of North Meath did organise community meetings but as one poster said it was slipped in Christmas week not giving much time. Then the world has changed dramatically since this so people's focus has been elsewhere.

The reason I raised it is a family member of mine wanted to build in the field beside our home place. Went to an Architect last week to get the ball rolling and was told he's cutting it fine time wise before the regulations come into force."
You are correct time is running out on this, however the development plan will not be adapted till next April. Also the planning application will be assessed on the development plan policy that is enforce at the time the planning application is lodged therefore you could lodge your planning application up to the day before the new development plan comes into force and fall under the old policy. i am familiar with the planning process so i would be advising anybody that is thinking of applying for planning to do so as soon as possible.

runitoff (Meath) - Posts: 4 - 10/11/2020 13:42:33    2307196

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Replying To runitoff:  "You are correct time is running out on this, however the development plan will not be adapted till next April. Also the planning application will be assessed on the development plan policy that is enforce at the time the planning application is lodged therefore you could lodge your planning application up to the day before the new development plan comes into force and fall under the old policy. i am familiar with the planning process so i would be advising anybody that is thinking of applying for planning to do so as soon as possible."
thanks for the info runitoff .
There seems to be a real lack of a forum to discuss these issues. none of local electors willing to put their head above the parapet and raise the issue on a much public basis. Meath beign the 1st county I believe to adopt this policy .

Jimmycricket (Meath) - Posts: 72 - 10/11/2020 14:17:26    2307210

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The main problem here is not the new regulations but the way certain people are able to profit from them and others to use them as a means of deliberately stifling the provision or extension of local services. As I see it any existing village or cluster can have a contiguous area of land zoned residential provided of course that existing services can cope with the increased demand on sewerage, electricity, educational and social facilities etc. So the County Council will simply state that existing sewerage in Ballywhatever has no more capacity so land adjacent to the village cannot be zoned residential. So move to the nearest town! This apparently has no effect whatever on the services in the town, of course it has, but as you know each town has in it's hinterland several villages/clusters so the lazy way is to provide one big extension of the town's sewerage system. The cost of providing this extension is then passed on to the developers of new housing schemes in the town and the developer will then pass a multiple of the cost on to the new house owners.
Back to the local village, I see no reason whatever why your local councillors cannot insist on the continued development of each village to meet local needs. It may mean not being able to build on 'your own land' but it should be possible to buy/ build on locally zoned residential land. But sadly in Ireland there exists a creature known as a developer who on the one hand provides a service of making houses available for purchase but on the other hand is a vulture who will cut every corner possible and inflate the cost of any service that he obtains from the county council and when they are on a small scale the sky is the limit.
So maybe it is time that local GAA Clubs lobbied the councils to zone land adjacent to villages and to insist on transparency as to the cost of providing the land any additional services that maybe required. In this way local purchasers will stand some chance of getting bang for their buck and keep the countryside alive.

MillerX (Meath) - Posts: 742 - 10/11/2020 15:12:54    2307239

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Replying To MillerX:  "The main problem here is not the new regulations but the way certain people are able to profit from them and others to use them as a means of deliberately stifling the provision or extension of local services. As I see it any existing village or cluster can have a contiguous area of land zoned residential provided of course that existing services can cope with the increased demand on sewerage, electricity, educational and social facilities etc. So the County Council will simply state that existing sewerage in Ballywhatever has no more capacity so land adjacent to the village cannot be zoned residential. So move to the nearest town! This apparently has no effect whatever on the services in the town, of course it has, but as you know each town has in it's hinterland several villages/clusters so the lazy way is to provide one big extension of the town's sewerage system. The cost of providing this extension is then passed on to the developers of new housing schemes in the town and the developer will then pass a multiple of the cost on to the new house owners.
Back to the local village, I see no reason whatever why your local councillors cannot insist on the continued development of each village to meet local needs. It may mean not being able to build on 'your own land' but it should be possible to buy/ build on locally zoned residential land. But sadly in Ireland there exists a creature known as a developer who on the one hand provides a service of making houses available for purchase but on the other hand is a vulture who will cut every corner possible and inflate the cost of any service that he obtains from the county council and when they are on a small scale the sky is the limit.
So maybe it is time that local GAA Clubs lobbied the councils to zone land adjacent to villages and to insist on transparency as to the cost of providing the land any additional services that maybe required. In this way local purchasers will stand some chance of getting bang for their buck and keep the countryside alive."
You hit the nail on the head. A bit of joint up thinking is unfortunately lacking. In relation to the local village setting there will be accidental developers created because now these nice farms on the outskirts of villages have suddenly been zoned.

Unfortunately asking the council to zone additional lands doesn't work as I made a submission on the proposed development plan for our GAA club highlighting the lack of zoned lands for local needs housing. I know a number of other clubs and individuals made similar submissions asking for additional lands to be zoned in there local areas. Unfortunately the response is the same from the council. The council believe they have enough lands zoned in villages up and down the county that will cater for local needs housing for the next 7 years. Unfortunately they haven't taken into account the extra housing needs they have just created by ceasing one off rural housing.

Our local village has 20 additional housing units allowed for in the new development plan. This is expected to cover an area up to 10km from our village. The development plan lasts 7 years so that is close to 3 houses per year for the next 7 years. With one off rural housing about to cease, 20 housing units for locals in our village would easily be used in 2 or 3 yrs and will land owners with this zoned land allow the land to be developed or wait till the price is right. What housing options does a young person in the next 7yrs? The only option is to move away from the local area they grew up in and move to the larger towns and cities. Once this goes through that's it for at least 7 yr.

runitoff (Meath) - Posts: 4 - 10/11/2020 21:55:35    2307383

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Replying To MillerX:  "The main problem here is not the new regulations but the way certain people are able to profit from them and others to use them as a means of deliberately stifling the provision or extension of local services. As I see it any existing village or cluster can have a contiguous area of land zoned residential provided of course that existing services can cope with the increased demand on sewerage, electricity, educational and social facilities etc. So the County Council will simply state that existing sewerage in Ballywhatever has no more capacity so land adjacent to the village cannot be zoned residential. So move to the nearest town! This apparently has no effect whatever on the services in the town, of course it has, but as you know each town has in it's hinterland several villages/clusters so the lazy way is to provide one big extension of the town's sewerage system. The cost of providing this extension is then passed on to the developers of new housing schemes in the town and the developer will then pass a multiple of the cost on to the new house owners.
Back to the local village, I see no reason whatever why your local councillors cannot insist on the continued development of each village to meet local needs. It may mean not being able to build on 'your own land' but it should be possible to buy/ build on locally zoned residential land. But sadly in Ireland there exists a creature known as a developer who on the one hand provides a service of making houses available for purchase but on the other hand is a vulture who will cut every corner possible and inflate the cost of any service that he obtains from the county council and when they are on a small scale the sky is the limit.
So maybe it is time that local GAA Clubs lobbied the councils to zone land adjacent to villages and to insist on transparency as to the cost of providing the land any additional services that maybe required. In this way local purchasers will stand some chance of getting bang for their buck and keep the countryside alive."
I'm honestly surprised at the reasoned consideration being given here....normally these discussions descend into "It's my God given right to build a house on any old patch of land down the end of the remotest boreen. I'll die before I take part in your Stalinist forced population transfer!".

One-off ribbon development is unsustainable and is just putting too much strain on services. As you say these houses should ideally start being developed in the local village instead, creating a critical population mass that will sustain a local shop, pub, bus route etc. Instead we get bad zoning and it's impossible to let the villages expand and thrive.

CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1391 - 10/11/2020 23:38:21    2307420

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Replying To runitoff:  "You hit the nail on the head. A bit of joint up thinking is unfortunately lacking. In relation to the local village setting there will be accidental developers created because now these nice farms on the outskirts of villages have suddenly been zoned.

Unfortunately asking the council to zone additional lands doesn't work as I made a submission on the proposed development plan for our GAA club highlighting the lack of zoned lands for local needs housing. I know a number of other clubs and individuals made similar submissions asking for additional lands to be zoned in there local areas. Unfortunately the response is the same from the council. The council believe they have enough lands zoned in villages up and down the county that will cater for local needs housing for the next 7 years. Unfortunately they haven't taken into account the extra housing needs they have just created by ceasing one off rural housing.

Our local village has 20 additional housing units allowed for in the new development plan. This is expected to cover an area up to 10km from our village. The development plan lasts 7 years so that is close to 3 houses per year for the next 7 years. With one off rural housing about to cease, 20 housing units for locals in our village would easily be used in 2 or 3 yrs and will land owners with this zoned land allow the land to be developed or wait till the price is right. What housing options does a young person in the next 7yrs? The only option is to move away from the local area they grew up in and move to the larger towns and cities. Once this goes through that's it for at least 7 yr."
Again I agree with you, what we have in Ireland is macro local government so individual villages in a large area are all treated the same.
If you compare Ireland to France or Germany virtually each small town or village has its own local structure to manage its needs, in other words micro management. This structure has resulted in no ribbon development in the countryside yet local communities are held together. A local farmer may indeed live in the village and travel maybe a mile or two to his farm each day or if the family resides on the farm they will only be granted permission permission to build an extra house on the farm unless it is adjacent to the village where the new property can tie into the municipal water and sewerage scheme. The other members of the family who want to remain local are facilitated by one of three ways, 1. Buy an existing house, 2. But an old property and make it habitable, there is often a tax break to assist and 3. Build on a plot/site on zoned land within the confines of the village at a price the equivalent to prevailing cost of land in the area plus the cost of adding services. How is this achieved, the answer is simple, high speculative tax. So there is really nothing to be saved by building on the home farm other than proximity to Mam and Dad.
As I pointed out earlier each village has its own local government structure, with its own Town Hall and Mayor. This may seem cumbersome but in a total local (that is very local) government system it actually isn't. Because the local government fulfill the role of the myriad of committees that are active in towns and villages up and down the country here in Ireland. This local body will provide the local playground, water the hanging baskets etc but from a GAA point of view provide the local stadia for all sports, athletics, rugby and soccer sharing the main pitch with indoor sports facilitated in one common sports centre. So effectively the local mayor is the equivalent of let's say the chairman of the local GAA club or Soccer club, he/she and their small cohort of councillors manage those facilities as well as keeping the local development plan up to date. This means buying land or exchanging land to provide well services sites for local needs. In this way there is a vested interest in, but most importantly a means of keeping communities vibrant.
Those facilities are financed by a mixture of local taxation and grants from regional government, the more you want the more you pay but everyone in the community pays according to their means. The actual teams get some of this locally raised tax but is often supplemented by club draws, lottos etc much the same as here to finance gear, travel and training costs.
Sadly I can't ever see us here in Ireland developing a micro local government to cater for local needs on such a targeted scale. Oh my God letting locals spend a fraction of locally raised taxes locally would be too much for our over cautious politicians, but as we all know they were never over cautious but often over greedy.
REFORM LOCAL GOVERNMENT NOW.

MillerX (Meath) - Posts: 742 - 10/11/2020 23:53:45    2307422

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It is only right and proper that these new planning regulations are discussed in a GAA forum like this because if they are implemented as proposed they will impact negatively on rural GAA clubs in County Meath.
It is undemocratic that even if our local County Councillors vote against these proposals, one unelected government official (the planning regulator) has said he has the authority to and will overturn their decision. This is an abuse of power, the office planning regulator was brought in to regulate planning in the aftermath of Priory Hall and Pyrite scandals. The planning Regulator is now is a position been run like a dictator who has an agenda to end all one off housing in the country. One person the Planning Regulator (who is answerable to no one)has the power to overrule all elected officials in the Country of Ireland, not alone are these regulations a threat to communities in rural Ireland but in reality also a threat to overrule democratic will of the people through their elected Councillors all over Ireland who he has threatened court proceedings against if they don't support these proposals. The office of the Planning Regulator and it's powers need to be seriously debated in government and changes made to stop what in reality is the bullying of elected County Councillors. Meath is the first County in the firing line as it is the 1st to adopt County Development Plan under new proposals.
So although we need our County Councillors to vote against this, the Planning Regulator has vowed to ignore any such vote. Call your TD's and and get them to first of all make sure that the powers of the planning regulator do not include over riding the decisions of Local Authorities as voted by the Councillors.
Nobody in Government seems to care about rural Ireland. These changes in the development plan is the nail in the coffin for many rural GAA clubs and we as a community, whether we be urban or rural GAA clubs must support our rural brothers and sisters.

Meathball (Meath) - Posts: 28 - 11/11/2020 00:03:17    2307423

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Replying To Meathball:  "It is only right and proper that these new planning regulations are discussed in a GAA forum like this because if they are implemented as proposed they will impact negatively on rural GAA clubs in County Meath.
It is undemocratic that even if our local County Councillors vote against these proposals, one unelected government official (the planning regulator) has said he has the authority to and will overturn their decision. This is an abuse of power, the office planning regulator was brought in to regulate planning in the aftermath of Priory Hall and Pyrite scandals. The planning Regulator is now is a position been run like a dictator who has an agenda to end all one off housing in the country. One person the Planning Regulator (who is answerable to no one)has the power to overrule all elected officials in the Country of Ireland, not alone are these regulations a threat to communities in rural Ireland but in reality also a threat to overrule democratic will of the people through their elected Councillors all over Ireland who he has threatened court proceedings against if they don't support these proposals. The office of the Planning Regulator and it's powers need to be seriously debated in government and changes made to stop what in reality is the bullying of elected County Councillors. Meath is the first County in the firing line as it is the 1st to adopt County Development Plan under new proposals.
So although we need our County Councillors to vote against this, the Planning Regulator has vowed to ignore any such vote. Call your TD's and and get them to first of all make sure that the powers of the planning regulator do not include over riding the decisions of Local Authorities as voted by the Councillors.
Nobody in Government seems to care about rural Ireland. These changes in the development plan is the nail in the coffin for many rural GAA clubs and we as a community, whether we be urban or rural GAA clubs must support our rural brothers and sisters."
"the Planning Regulator has vowed to ignore any such vote."
This says it all.

MillerX (Meath) - Posts: 742 - 11/11/2020 14:30:19    2307617

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I think it is a poor reflection the way our politicians are treating rural Ireland. We have lots of politicians in Government but they do not appear to do much for the county in terms of this issue, which will have negative consequences-just hope they waken up and change this policy.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2189 - 13/11/2020 22:13:31    2308548

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Have Meath county council voted on this yet? It's a complicated subject as I don't think it's sustainable to continue to build one off housing across the county until the point where you can't tell where the town finishes and the countryside starts. Ireland must be unique in the way we have houses scattered all over the countryside. If anyone has ever driven across parts of Britian you will notice that one off housing is extremely rare and the vast vast majority of new builds are in towns /cities.

11jm11 (Kildare) - Posts: 345 - 24/11/2020 18:33:36    2314867

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Replying To 11jm11:  "Have Meath county council voted on this yet? It's a complicated subject as I don't think it's sustainable to continue to build one off housing across the county until the point where you can't tell where the town finishes and the countryside starts. Ireland must be unique in the way we have houses scattered all over the countryside. If anyone has ever driven across parts of Britian you will notice that one off housing is extremely rare and the vast vast majority of new builds are in towns /cities."
Agreed Ireland is indeed unique across the World regarding one off housing for two reasons, it is indeed unsustainable, negative affect on ground water, cost of services etc and far too much of it but the second reason its unique is because of the absolutely corrupt politicians that we indulge in this country. The rip off developers have forced people who want to live near their parents, friends etc to either build a once off house or buy a house in a housing estate in a town or city, maybe not of their choice but where they could get the perceived best value. So called developers in this country have forced the house buyers to them rather than providing their service on a proportionate level to meet parochial or village or small town needs. But of course the more compact the housing estates became the greater the profit and rural Ireland was squeezed unlike other well managed economies in the Western World. Your observation about Britain is indeed correct as most new builds take place in towns and cities but the country villages are not dying like here in Ireland because of proper planning industries were developed or retained locally thereby sustaining the local economies. We have simply destroyed natural local industries like the sugar industry and even the local creamery is history. Should Guinness still be brewed at St James's Gate when the bulk of the raw material is produced in your own county, in Carlow and Wexford? No it should not. Guinness could easily be brewed somewhere in the Southeast, the sugar factory site in Carlow is still vacant I think or was at least on the last time I was allowed to travel to Carlow, with exports going out through Rosslare or Waterford. Long term interventions like this would give some form of balance to our demographics. Tough on the city based Guinness worker I know but Dublin is doing away better than the rest of us in most spheres those days through hi tech and comparable industries. This is only one example of where such interventions should take place.
Rural Ireland had to stand and fight now or be turned into a wilderness, just remember that An Taisce stepped outside it's remit by forcing the closure of the ESB station in Lanesboro, the bogs are being 'rewetted' no they are being flooded. Soon a slan and a turf barrow will be offensive weapons. And there is NO plan B.

MillerX (Meath) - Posts: 742 - 24/11/2020 20:08:02    2314936

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