Meath Forum

Keegan Cup

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Replying To Htaem:  "Undoubtedly some very entertaining knockout stages games in the Meath championship this year and that's what we need in Meath football, but it begs a very obvious question, why do we allow such a rubbish group stage system before the real stuff starts?

Here's 2 things that really annoyed me about this years championship (ps, nothing personal against any of these teams):

1. Na Fianna made it to the KO stages having won just 1 out of 5 group games
2. St. Colmcille's and Rathkenny both lost 4 games out of 5 and didn't even have to play in a relegation play off

18 Senior teams is too many, 1 relegation is not enough and 3 groups of 6 is pathetic, you should only be able to lose a maximum of 1 game and still be in with a chance.

Now I await the backlash."
Shouldn't be one bit of backlash.
You are 100% right in everything that you wrote. And I can say that as a diehard fan of one of the clubs you mentioned.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17035 - 28/09/2017 19:56:30    2051457

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I watched Wolfe tones vs ratoath Stephen corrigan what a powerhouse in the middle of the park for Wolfe tones he would match up to any midfielder in the county

condae99 (Meath) - Posts: 34 - 28/09/2017 23:05:03    2051528

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Replying To Htaem:  "Undoubtedly some very entertaining knockout stages games in the Meath championship this year and that's what we need in Meath football, but it begs a very obvious question, why do we allow such a rubbish group stage system before the real stuff starts?

Here's 2 things that really annoyed me about this years championship (ps, nothing personal against any of these teams):

1. Na Fianna made it to the KO stages having won just 1 out of 5 group games
2. St. Colmcille's and Rathkenny both lost 4 games out of 5 and didn't even have to play in a relegation play off

18 Senior teams is too many, 1 relegation is not enough and 3 groups of 6 is pathetic, you should only be able to lose a maximum of 1 game and still be in with a chance.

Now I await the backlash."
Htaem from an outsider instead of 3 groups of 6 why not go with 6 groups of 3. Each team plays each once so every team has 2 matches in the group.

A). The 6 group winners goes straight to the quarter-finals.
B). The 6 runners up goes straight in to the quarter-finals play-off. 4 teams would play each other in a preliminary round. The 2 winners would meet the remaining 2 in the first round. The 2 winners of the first round matches would join the 6 group winners in the quarter-finals.
C). The 6 bottom teams in the group go in to the relegation play-offs. 4 teams would play each other in a preliminary round. The 2 losers would meet the remaining 2 in the first round. The 2 losers of the first round matches would play each other in a relegation play-off final.

With this system every team has something to play for in the group.

OLLIE (Louth) - Posts: 12224 - 28/09/2017 23:10:19    2051530

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Replying To royaldunne:  "Shouldn't be one bit of backlash.
You are 100% right in everything that you wrote. And I can say that as a diehard fan of one of the clubs you mentioned."
You have over a number of years been complaining about the standard of senior club football vs Leinster and how this effects the county team-and I disagree with that analysis - nothing personal!.
Now can you explain how one of your teams -the Cilles (who I think are a very good side but were in the most difficult grouping with the teams who had won the previous 3 championships) were unable to win any championship match in a competition where you think the quality is poor, yet the were unlucky not to win the AI intermediate. By the way the Tyrone team (Pomeroy) who knocked them out (if I'm correct) knocked the Tyrone champions out of the Tyrone championship. My point is the championship is very competitive and the quality is pretty decent- although some seems to think that a change is required to improve the standard. The logic being touted is that if we changed the format each year then the standard would improve accordingly.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2189 - 29/09/2017 00:49:40    2051555

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Replying To browncows:  "You have over a number of years been complaining about the standard of senior club football vs Leinster and how this effects the county team-and I disagree with that analysis - nothing personal!.
Now can you explain how one of your teams -the Cilles (who I think are a very good side but were in the most difficult grouping with the teams who had won the previous 3 championships) were unable to win any championship match in a competition where you think the quality is poor, yet the were unlucky not to win the AI intermediate. By the way the Tyrone team (Pomeroy) who knocked them out (if I'm correct) knocked the Tyrone champions out of the Tyrone championship. My point is the championship is very competitive and the quality is pretty decent- although some seems to think that a change is required to improve the standard. The logic being touted is that if we changed the format each year then the standard would improve accordingly."
4 groups, 4 teams of 4 top 2 into straight knock out bottom in each group relegation play off,
Condensed season where virtually every game matters.
Just to clarify we beat pomeroy in all ire semis and lost (narrowly ) to lee Keenan's Westport in all ire final. Again while the ever optimist in me hoped cilles would do something spectacular in senior this year, a little bit of naivety cost them games as did been on the road for a full year, it took its toll . Also just to add we could seed the previous years semi finalist so they not in same group. That's my suggestion. I'm open to others that make the senior club championship the jewel that it should be, it has a knock on effect to how we (our county champs) as imo they represent us all , perform in Leinster, it will also help due to intensity of games , the senior and u20 county teams.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17035 - 30/09/2017 07:38:30    2051854

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Replying To OLLIE:  "Htaem from an outsider instead of 3 groups of 6 why not go with 6 groups of 3. Each team plays each once so every team has 2 matches in the group.

A). The 6 group winners goes straight to the quarter-finals.
B). The 6 runners up goes straight in to the quarter-finals play-off. 4 teams would play each other in a preliminary round. The 2 winners would meet the remaining 2 in the first round. The 2 winners of the first round matches would join the 6 group winners in the quarter-finals.
C). The 6 bottom teams in the group go in to the relegation play-offs. 4 teams would play each other in a preliminary round. The 2 losers would meet the remaining 2 in the first round. The 2 losers of the first round matches would play each other in a relegation play-off final.

With this system every team has something to play for in the group."
Actually that's a even better solution than my one. I like it.
Good man Ollie.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17035 - 30/09/2017 07:40:11    2051855

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Replying To royaldunne:  "Actually that's a even better solution than my one. I like it.
Good man Ollie."
'Your' solution has been said by pretty much everyone posting on the last two pages of this forum! Have you picked your favourite points from each and decided to join the party? Good one from Ollie too but there'd still be 18 teams and think that's the problem, how duleek are a senior team is beyond me they'll finally be put out of their misery even though blackhall aren't much better. Someone made the point here that cilles lost 4 of their 5 games (they drew the other) and didn't have to fight to stay up, that's an absolute farce.

Northsidegaels (Meath) - Posts: 227 - 30/09/2017 09:39:59    2051867

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Replying To browncows:  "There's 4 or 5 posters who agree with you. 99.999% of folk involved in football never post to this or any other tread/board, so the relevance of who agrees or disagrees matter little. Its changing the format/organisation in clubs that makes good players-not how we organise a senior championship. I do agree that 16 teams are enough and you do need a league type of championship otherwise we would have a situation where a player on a country team may only play one match for his club. Every player knows the rules of the competition before it starts. As I said before I would like to see every player in the county given the opportunity of playing in the senior championship (if they are good enough). As a previous poster said the Kerry solution by giving players a platform to impress seems good to me."
I think changing the structure within the clubs and the structure of the championships would both help. Also I agree the Kerry championship is an interesting one and it would be nice to see all players having the opportunity to play senior.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 30/09/2017 09:41:13    2051868

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Replying To anfearbeag:  "I agree completely with you on the need to change the structure of the championship, and with the format you suggested.
I disagree completely on the role of the county board in trying to implement change. In my opinion the county board have shown a complete lack of leadership regarding the county championship. That is nothing new- the problems with too many clubs dates back to the county board bottling a decision to relegate acteam to intermediate, instead allowing 17 teams play senior. Then instead of doing the right thing and relegating 2 teams the next year, they bottled it again and increased it to 18.
At the end of the day, the county board is pure politics, and politics is all about getting things done. Whatever deals, horsetrading, threats, or promises that were needed to get the proper championship structures in place should have been done. You certainly can't afford to leave it to the whims of the delegates."
anfearbeag I haven't been a huge fan of this county board but to be fair the current mess of a championship was caused more or less before they came in. Also they did push to change the structure and got it through but the clubs then reneged on it.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 30/09/2017 09:43:48    2051869

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Replying To royaldunne:  "Shouldn't be one bit of backlash.
You are 100% right in everything that you wrote. And I can say that as a diehard fan of one of the clubs you mentioned."
Fairplay royaldunne and again it's nothing personal, just looking at the championship in a completely objective manner. I honestly don't think it's fit for purpose and that's a great shame, again just look at the improvement in entertainment once we reach the KO stages, our group format is all wrong.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 30/09/2017 09:47:22    2051871

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Replying To OLLIE:  "Htaem from an outsider instead of 3 groups of 6 why not go with 6 groups of 3. Each team plays each once so every team has 2 matches in the group.

A). The 6 group winners goes straight to the quarter-finals.
B). The 6 runners up goes straight in to the quarter-finals play-off. 4 teams would play each other in a preliminary round. The 2 winners would meet the remaining 2 in the first round. The 2 winners of the first round matches would join the 6 group winners in the quarter-finals.
C). The 6 bottom teams in the group go in to the relegation play-offs. 4 teams would play each other in a preliminary round. The 2 losers would meet the remaining 2 in the first round. The 2 losers of the first round matches would play each other in a relegation play-off final.

With this system every team has something to play for in the group."
It's not a bad suggestion OLLIE, certainly better than what we have at the minute, but we really need to reduce the number of senior teams and for me 2 relegations would be no harm.

Personally I'd like to see either of these 2 options (both 16 team competitions):

1. 4 groups of 4, each team plays 3 group games, top 2 in each group through to QF stages, 3rd placed teams are safe and bottom 4 teams play in 2 relegation finals = ie 2 relegations!

or

2. 16 team KO tournament, where the first round losers get a second chance (so you don't end up training all year to play only 1 championship game) but if you lose a game from the second round on then you're out. Also the 4 teams that lose both their first and second round games go into 2 relegation finals = again 2 relegations.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 30/09/2017 09:56:57    2051875

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Replying To Htaem:  "It's not a bad suggestion OLLIE, certainly better than what we have at the minute, but we really need to reduce the number of senior teams and for me 2 relegations would be no harm.

Personally I'd like to see either of these 2 options (both 16 team competitions):

1. 4 groups of 4, each team plays 3 group games, top 2 in each group through to QF stages, 3rd placed teams are safe and bottom 4 teams play in 2 relegation finals = ie 2 relegations!

or

2. 16 team KO tournament, where the first round losers get a second chance (so you don't end up training all year to play only 1 championship game) but if you lose a game from the second round on then you're out. Also the 4 teams that lose both their first and second round games go into 2 relegation finals = again 2 relegations."
I would agree with that suggestion, except you could find a situation where your county players only play 2 matches /year for their club which would be most unsatisfactory for club football. Unfortunately most teams who have a good chance of winning the Keeghan cup do not give a hoot about the league, except to stay in Div 1.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2189 - 30/09/2017 10:52:34    2051888

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Replying To browncows:  "I would agree with that suggestion, except you could find a situation where your county players only play 2 matches /year for their club which would be most unsatisfactory for club football. Unfortunately most teams who have a good chance of winning the Keeghan cup do not give a hoot about the league, except to stay in Div 1."
Admittedly that is a snag browncows and that's why the 4 groups of 4 option is probably better because it would guarantee every team at least 3 games and 12 of the teams would play at least 4 games.

The only possible benefit of the KO tournament though is that winning is crucial after the first round so there would be a sense of urgency and hopfully as a result an increase of intensity within our champsionship. However I do see your point and I doubt our clubs would go for such a structure, I think it would be very interesting though.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 30/09/2017 11:49:23    2051900

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Replying To Htaem:  "anfearbeag I haven't been a huge fan of this county board but to be fair the current mess of a championship was caused more or less before they came in. Also they did push to change the structure and got it through but the clubs then reneged on it."
I absolutely agree that the mess pre-dates this county board executive - apologies if I didn't make that clear. Unfortunately we have a long history in this county of ineffective county boards avoiding the hard decisions.
I disagree though that this county board pushed hard for change. If they did, they did do it in a very effective manner. From what I can see, the moves for change have all come form the club delegates, with different delegates or groups of delegates pushing for a format that suits their own agenda. In my opinion what has been lacking is strong leadership from the county board. Decide on a format that works, and that will be accepted by the clubs. Do your homework in advance to ensure that you have the numbers to get the decision through. Push the vote through, and don't allow any back-tracking on it after that.

anfearbeag (Meath) - Posts: 1134 - 30/09/2017 15:38:42    2051940

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Replying To Northsidegaels:  "'Your' solution has been said by pretty much everyone posting on the last two pages of this forum! Have you picked your favourite points from each and decided to join the party? Good one from Ollie too but there'd still be 18 teams and think that's the problem, how duleek are a senior team is beyond me they'll finally be put out of their misery even though blackhall aren't much better. Someone made the point here that cilles lost 4 of their 5 games (they drew the other) and didn't have to fight to stay up, that's an absolute farce."
As a new poster I'll let than one slide.
FYI I said same thing 2/3/4 years ago. I have been at the party as you say since very beginning, even though I and browncows would agree on very little he would attest to my concerns on this for many a year as would plenty of other posters

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17035 - 30/09/2017 16:25:57    2051953

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Replying To anfearbeag:  "I absolutely agree that the mess pre-dates this county board executive - apologies if I didn't make that clear. Unfortunately we have a long history in this county of ineffective county boards avoiding the hard decisions.
I disagree though that this county board pushed hard for change. If they did, they did do it in a very effective manner. From what I can see, the moves for change have all come form the club delegates, with different delegates or groups of delegates pushing for a format that suits their own agenda. In my opinion what has been lacking is strong leadership from the county board. Decide on a format that works, and that will be accepted by the clubs. Do your homework in advance to ensure that you have the numbers to get the decision through. Push the vote through, and don't allow any back-tracking on it after that."
I agree with you there anfearbeag and again I'm no champion of this county board. But you're right, they could have done their homework, presented a structure that was well thought out and suited the majority, got that through and made sure there would be no u turns.

In fairness I don't think they did any of that, some may disagree but they could and should have provided far greater leadership on this issue.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 30/09/2017 18:22:40    2051974

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Replying To royaldunne:  "As a new poster I'll let than one slide.
FYI I said same thing 2/3/4 years ago. I have been at the party as you say since very beginning, even though I and browncows would agree on very little he would attest to my concerns on this for many a year as would plenty of other posters"
I'm only pulling your left one, having read these forums for a few years I think everyone would rather see 4 groups of 4 thats why I thought the whole "my solution" quote was a bit much especially as I never seen u mention the 4 seeded teams from the semi finals before but anyway that's child's play, more importantly will there be no football at all next week after the draw in the intermediate hurling? I know the o mahonys summerhill game is put back a week but the tones simonstown game probably will be too they won't have a team in the final before the quarter is played on the other side of the draw will they? Surely extra time should be compulsory with such a gongested fixture list

Northsidegaels (Meath) - Posts: 227 - 30/09/2017 18:45:17    2051977

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Replying To Northsidegaels:  "I'm only pulling your left one, having read these forums for a few years I think everyone would rather see 4 groups of 4 thats why I thought the whole "my solution" quote was a bit much especially as I never seen u mention the 4 seeded teams from the semi finals before but anyway that's child's play, more importantly will there be no football at all next week after the draw in the intermediate hurling? I know the o mahonys summerhill game is put back a week but the tones simonstown game probably will be too they won't have a team in the final before the quarter is played on the other side of the draw will they? Surely extra time should be compulsory with such a gongested fixture list"
Oh don't mind me I'm just twychy today :). Look I think all anyone wants is a senior championship that is befitting of a county like Meath. And who's champion is feared not hoped for. This has a knock on effect to the county team. I just don't think the opening rounds are fit for purpose. The knock outs offer some great games, but I feel when the winner goes onto Leinster they are not battle hardened. I have driven through mullennachta in Longford on a good few occasions, honestly to get beat by them would be a kick in the face. The same with killoe, to see nom get whipped by them was very disheartening.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17035 - 30/09/2017 22:27:25    2052041

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Replying To royaldunne:  "Actually that's a even better solution than my one. I like it.
Good man Ollie."
Good man Royaldunne. How is she cutting? With the way the draw works out will O'Mahoney's and Simonstown be kept apart. What are you hoping for next year for the Royals? I am delighted that Pete Mc Grath has taken over the Wee County. It's gonna be a Blues v Gaels Louth senior final. It will be the first Drawda v Fundalk Senior final since 1988. Looking forward to it.

OLLIE (Louth) - Posts: 12224 - 02/10/2017 11:40:53    2052335

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What's your verdict between simonstown vs Wolfe tones . Is Conor Nash still around

condae99 (Meath) - Posts: 34 - 02/10/2017 19:13:57    2052532

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