Cavan Forum

Ulster Championship

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Replying To cavanman47:  "It's not lads who were left out that we're talking about - it's 10 starters from the last 2 years!


There's 4 in particular who we miss badly;

Givney is in London for work.
Corr is now married and I think has a baby.
Keating won't play without Givney as the two are good friends. Like it or not, that's his reason.

Those 3 and Martin Dunne (not sure what his reasons are) would make a massive difference!"
IMO the only one that would make a potential difference would be Givney and that would be stretching it. Even he barely put 2 powerful games together for Cavan when it mattered. Martin Dunne knows where the posts are but cannot win his own ball. Keating always took on impossible shots so scoring ratio not good enough. Corr no better than what you have presently.
I will say that last year's minors did have 2 promising forwards in Madden & Pierson...the best I've seen in Cavan in years.....nurture them !

Shelbourne (Monaghan) - Posts: 567 - 16/05/2018 22:41:58    2101539

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "I utterly repudiate the notion that we are not producing good footballers in Cavan. If it was a case that Cavan had no talent, then why are our underage teams performing reasonably well since 2011? Clearly, the talent is there. However, it appears to me, that it is being mis-managed."
Shambles winning Ulster under 21 titles is not the holy grail....it's getting 3 or 4 good quality players from that age group each year (now under 20) that counts.
Cork won more Munster under 21 titles than Kerry these last 20 years but where did it get them. Furthermore the quality of football Cavan played in winning those titles was not conducive to developing quality forwards.

Shelbourne (Monaghan) - Posts: 567 - 16/05/2018 22:49:15    2101542

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Replying To MadgeKing:  "59 players since 2012, very interesting. Mind you, not one of them would be a nailed on starter for Tyrone."
And that's it in a nutshell !

Shelbourne (Monaghan) - Posts: 567 - 16/05/2018 22:52:08    2101543

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Replying To Shelbourne:  "IMO the only one that would make a potential difference would be Givney and that would be stretching it. Even he barely put 2 powerful games together for Cavan when it mattered. Martin Dunne knows where the posts are but cannot win his own ball. Keating always took on impossible shots so scoring ratio not good enough. Corr no better than what you have presently.
I will say that last year's minors did have 2 promising forwards in Madden & Pierson...the best I've seen in Cavan in years.....nurture them !"
Givney and Corr would make a big difference. Power and heart are essential in a team. Doing the simple things correctly when things are not going so well. It's not all about the limelight or getting silky talent in. You have to have a balance of both skill and grit in a proper team. The forwards mentioned are no obvious upgrade though. They got their fair chance at it, maybe even at detriment to some of our other forward talent. And regardless of how good a forward thinks he is, if he is not willing to work both on the field and off it, he is not an IC footballer in today's game.

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 16/05/2018 23:57:10    2101557

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "And that's just championship, in the league it could well be in excess of 70. This revolving door needs to stop. No county can be competitive with a situation like this.

Well, not at the moment would they be starters, but if they were handled correctly and enjoyed playing for Cavan, things could have been so much different."
Mattie Donnelly, Peter Harte, Tiernan McCann, Lee Brennan, Padraig Hampsey

Michael Murphy, Paddy McBrearty, Ryan McHugh, Ciaran Thompson, Odhran McNiallais

We couldnt pick any 5 from the 59 since 2012 to match these. That is the reality.
At a stretch, maybe Martin Reilly, Killian Clarke, Dara McVeety, Cian Mackey, Givney

MadgeKing (Cavan) - Posts: 489 - 17/05/2018 00:10:33    2101560

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "I have painstakingly managed to gather together the list of players who have played championship football for Cavan since 2012.

Incredibly, there are 59 players in championship alone, god knows how many there is if you include the league.

Here they are,

J Reilly
K Clarke
P O'Reilly
K Meehan
J McLoughlin
R Maloney-Derham
D Givney
G McKiernan
F Flanagan
M McKeever
J Brady
E Keating
B Fitzpatrick
D Reilly
R Flanagan
T Corr
N McDermott
N Smith
K Tierney
R Galligan
D Tighe
J Hayes
D McKiernan
C Gilsenan
R Dunne
J McEnroe
A Clarke
C Mackey
M Dunne
A o'Meara
M Reilly
K Brady
M Argue
M Lyng
P Tinnelly
N Murray
T Mooney
D McVeety
C Brady
T Hayes
C Moynagh
B Reilly
P Smith
P Faulkner
S Johnston
G Smith
L Buchanan
C Madden
N Clerkin
R Connolly
J Dillon
C O'Reilly
T Galligan
C Bradley
E Flanagan
B Magee
O kiernan
F Reilly
A Cole


It is completely unsustainable to continue in this fashion going forward. We must keep our best talent on that panel."
We also used players in McKenna cup and league like
Levi Murphy
J mc Cutcheon
K Fannin
C McClarey
S Jordan
F Slowey
S McCormack
D o Dowd
D Barkey
P Leddy
M Leddy
C Galligan
O Minagh
J Morris
C Conroy
E Henry
B Sankey
And that's only a few I can think of . So we have gone through over 100 players in 5/6 years.

Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 975 - 17/05/2018 11:12:16    2101642

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Tbf gaining two promotions to division 1, (albeit a relegation in between)and being competitive for the first year in division 2 is an incredible achievement considering the turn over of players. upwards of 80 players over all competitions since 2012 is mind blowing. In 2013 i really thought Cavan were beginning to assemble a decent squad together. I felt the quarter final should have been a stepping stone, however it takes silverware to invigorate a team. Monaghan in 2013 beat us by a point in 2013 and went on to win ulster. Not saying we'd have done the same but had we beaten Monaghan that day and went on and won ulster would our fortunes currently be reversed? who knows............

theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 394 - 17/05/2018 12:17:49    2101672

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Replying To theweanling:  "Tbf gaining two promotions to division 1, (albeit a relegation in between)and being competitive for the first year in division 2 is an incredible achievement considering the turn over of players. upwards of 80 players over all competitions since 2012 is mind blowing. In 2013 i really thought Cavan were beginning to assemble a decent squad together. I felt the quarter final should have been a stepping stone, however it takes silverware to invigorate a team. Monaghan in 2013 beat us by a point in 2013 and went on to win ulster. Not saying we'd have done the same but had we beaten Monaghan that day and went on and won ulster would our fortunes currently be reversed? who knows............"
I absolutely agree that the Monaghan games were pivotal in defining the future of Cavan. The 2013 game in Clones was a bizarre game, but the 2015 game was the one that we never recovered from. We bottled that game and threw it away. Had we won that it would have possibly been a catalyst for making that step up to the next level. That was THE chance to take, and we didn't do it.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 406 - 17/05/2018 12:45:53    2101680

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Replying To Inaroundehouse:  "We also used players in McKenna cup and league like
Levi Murphy
J mc Cutcheon
K Fannin
C McClarey
S Jordan
F Slowey
S McCormack
D o Dowd
D Barkey
P Leddy
M Leddy
C Galligan
O Minagh
J Morris
C Conroy
E Henry
B Sankey
And that's only a few I can think of . So we have gone through over 100 players in 5/6 years."
Fair play for gathering that together, there are many more in addition to what you and I have put forward, so realistically we're talking at least 80 + players in 6 years across all competitions. And we're a small county! One of the smallest in Ireland in terms of population.

This is sheer lunacy. I'm all in favour of trying out different players, but after giving more than 80 players a chance to represent their county we still don't have a settled spine in the team.

Why are the county board not looking at these numbers and acting on it? The next manager needs to be a high profile name. Primarily to attract back the players who won't commit and secondly to build a spine to our team. The only settled position we have is the goalkeeper.

Next they'll be asking me to put on a jersey ffs.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 406 - 17/05/2018 12:52:59    2101688

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "Fair play for gathering that together, there are many more in addition to what you and I have put forward, so realistically we're talking at least 80 + players in 6 years across all competitions. And we're a small county! One of the smallest in Ireland in terms of population.

This is sheer lunacy. I'm all in favour of trying out different players, but after giving more than 80 players a chance to represent their county we still don't have a settled spine in the team.

Why are the county board not looking at these numbers and acting on it? The next manager needs to be a high profile name. Primarily to attract back the players who won't commit and secondly to build a spine to our team. The only settled position we have is the goalkeeper.

Next they'll be asking me to put on a jersey ffs."
Agree 100% that next manager should be high profile for reason you stated.
It should have been high profile in 2012 with Terry as no 2 but the powers that be thought otherwise.

Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 975 - 17/05/2018 14:04:17    2101709

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Where to now?
Will there be defections from the panel, trips to America?
How do we change things that we don't play so naively again?
What's the future for both team and management ?
Do we need to change structures in the county to nurture young players like the Dubs and Kerry obviously do.

Virginia (Cavan) - Posts: 94 - 17/05/2018 14:10:24    2101711

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I didnt like the way McGlennan put it on McVitty to get the team to pull together for qualifiers. He said is was McVittys team. Sorry Matty, thats your job and you get paid to do it unlike Darragh. I thought he almost sounded desperate to get lads to go at the qualifiers so I am not very optimistic.

fredflint (Cavan) - Posts: 1333 - 17/05/2018 16:17:28    2101737

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Replying To Shelbourne:  "Shambles winning Ulster under 21 titles is not the holy grail....it's getting 3 or 4 good quality players from that age group each year (now under 20) that counts.
Cork won more Munster under 21 titles than Kerry these last 20 years but where did it get them. Furthermore the quality of football Cavan played in winning those titles was not conducive to developing quality forwards."
I agree totally.. the type of football Cavan played in winning those U21 titles was woefull.... Tyrone gained far more as regards finding talent from their 2 teams that we beat than we got from 4 winning teams.... As I posted at the time...winning 10 U 21 titles in a row is not worth a dam if it doesn't translate into senior success. .. As simple as that

Sean.66 (Cavan) - Posts: 293 - 17/05/2018 18:54:31    2101763

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Replying To Sean.66:  "I agree totally.. the type of football Cavan played in winning those U21 titles was woefull.... Tyrone gained far more as regards finding talent from their 2 teams that we beat than we got from 4 winning teams.... As I posted at the time...winning 10 U 21 titles in a row is not worth a dam if it doesn't translate into senior success. .. As simple as that"
So why in your opinion did our underage success not translate into senior success?

Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 975 - 17/05/2018 19:35:53    2101770

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With these 100 or so IC standard players knocking around all from a 6 year period it must be some club scene in Cavan. Oh wait......

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 17/05/2018 20:50:42    2101795

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Replying To Inaroundehouse:  "Agree 100% that next manager should be high profile for reason you stated.
It should have been high profile in 2012 with Terry as no 2 but the powers that be thought otherwise."
The truth is boys, when Terry was chased out, there was no one better than him lined up. You might want a high profile manager but the truth is none wanted the job. Horan said no remember. In the end it was Banty vrs Matty. So the lesson is don't go firing your manager until there is someone better available!

The only one possibly that might be interested is Pete McGrath.

fredflint (Cavan) - Posts: 1333 - 17/05/2018 21:06:07    2101803

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Replying To fredflint:  "The truth is boys, when Terry was chased out, there was no one better than him lined up. You might want a high profile manager but the truth is none wanted the job. Horan said no remember. In the end it was Banty vrs Matty. So the lesson is don't go firing your manager until there is someone better available!

The only one possibly that might be interested is Pete McGrath."
The same Pete McGrath that was run out of Fermanagh and is currently in the midst of a truly disastrous stint over Louth? No thanks.

GallantJohnJoe (Cavan) - Posts: 310 - 17/05/2018 21:31:23    2101811

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Look there was an above average player drop out this past year or two which have weaken the bench. That experience and advanced conditioning/power would have been very beneficial against Donegal and gave us more options but it is what it is. If lads can't/wont commit then you have to move on. There's only so much a manager can do and sometimes his needs are more immediate. Player development sometimes has to come from the players themselves and even clubs. Look at Tom Parsons. Dropped from Mayo panel coming into his prime but forced his way back into squad over a 3 year period through performances with his intermediate club all the while based in UK. Became one of their most influential players and All Star nominee. Going through that list I'm looking for players that stood out in the club championships and I'm struggling.
If there is a unique problem it would be good to know exactly what it is but hysteria and exaggerating numbers will not improve things. The national average for an IC career is probably about 7 years. Average squad size is about 35. So every year you're looking at an average turnover of 5 players. 2 of those at least will be first teamers. Over 7 years you're looking at at least 70 players and possibly a whole new starting team. But reality is with pre season competitions and challenge games the number will be higher. Bear in mind we were operating with a separate U21 panel who didn't participate in the league so our extended panel would have been bigger. There's a lot of players listed there that had brief appearances but the core group of players, the ones that would have been always included in team selections on here was pretty stable. In fact lots were saying it was too much so and and giving out about "Terry's favourites". The team is still involved in the championship and hopefully will spring a surprise or too. Lets get behind them instead of talking about replacements.

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 17/05/2018 22:55:17    2101829

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "I absolutely agree that the Monaghan games were pivotal in defining the future of Cavan. The 2013 game in Clones was a bizarre game, but the 2015 game was the one that we never recovered from. We bottled that game and threw it away. Had we won that it would have possibly been a catalyst for making that step up to the next level. That was THE chance to take, and we didn't do it."
More delusion....'we bottled it'....that's what better teams do ...they keep calm, have faith in their superior ability, use their more talented bench (it's not a 15 man game anymore) and then kick on to victory in the last 15/20 mins.

Shelbourne (Monaghan) - Posts: 567 - 17/05/2018 23:15:31    2101835

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Replying To GallantJohnJoe:  "The same Pete McGrath that was run out of Fermanagh and is currently in the midst of a truly disastrous stint over Louth? No thanks."
Hyland did a great job at u21 level but had not the experience to manage a senior inter county team. He would have made a great number 2 with his knowledge of the players .
Don't seem that Mattie has that experience either but deserves this year to finish out his 2 year term.
Of what's available James McCartan fits the bill . After all he brought an average Down team to an All Ireland final.
Maybe bring Terry in as his assistant.

Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 975 - 18/05/2018 07:58:05    2101864

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