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Replying To countdown: "JamsieMac you're ignorance has no bounds. If you are going to show such lack of respect to clubs like Corlough and Templeport then it's not worth arguing with you. Amalgamating clubs will improve the standard of club football in Cavan - it will revive interest and competitiveness within the clubs who have so few numbers in recent years that it is inevitable that these clubs will fold sooner rather than later. What I am suggesting is instead of letting this happen we act first. If you go to club games and have an interest in any other club other than your own you will see this widespread problem across the county. There are very few clubs with a suffice number of substitutes. Ballymahugh had only 4 minor players this year. Castlerahan are playing 11 a side division 16... just two examples of problems at underage. The list of eye opening problems is right in front of our eyes and there are very solutions but one very obvious one is to amalgamate and address the problem before it escalates to a point of no return. The County Board are the county board - you say the clubs elect the CB and all this - well then maybe the powers within the clubs need to change. Did you have a vote in the county board election process? Or do you know who you're club even nominated? No you had no say and are afraid to ask as these are "executive" decisions with clubs these days. Go down to Corlough and Templeport and ask them how their clubs are doing at underage and how their numbers are at senior level....go to Maghera and ask them how they do it and do they think what they are doing is sustainable? You say about Drumalee or Killygarry folding as a club - they will but together will be able to compete for a senior medal - that I have no doubt. Their second team would also compete for an intermediate medal. Competitiveness breeds success. So I think we must give this a try for the future of clubs across the county." My ignorance? Well you might be right coz I don't understand half the waffle that you just came out with. County board delegates and nominees? I never mentioned anything of the sort. Plus if you think killygarry 'will' fold without drumalee then you are seriously dilluded. We are thriving as a club at all levels, and you say if we merged with Drumalee we'd win a senior medal. No offense to our neighbors but an amalgamated team would still have killygarry players from 1 to 15.
I used corlough as an example as they are crippled by low population. If they wish to or need to merge then I'm all for it. My point, which is lost on you, is that corlough merging doesn't mean they'll start producing intercounty stars.
If ballymachugh only have 4 minors well common sense would be that those 4 should be allowed play with crosserlough or mullahorn without having to transfer. Why should mullahorn or crosserlough have to change their name and jerseys etc just to take on 4 ballymachugh players for 2 years?
JamsieMac (Cavan) - Posts: 425 - 03/08/2017 16:35:44
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Thriving as a club at all levels? I admire your confidence. Once again it is not the issue at hand - do you not think that if Ballymahugh have only 4 minor players this year it is problematic for their club? It is this "we will not change the name of our club" attitude which is going to hold our county back from development. There have been some fantastic footballers from clubs like Corlough which have been as good as from any other club but have been never given a chance - do you not think playing at a more competitive level will improve them even further? Going forward clubs like Maghera will need Ramor. Munterconnaght and Castlerahan will need each other. Mountnugent and Ballymahugh will need each other. The west Cavan clubs will need each other. Fair enough if you think your club have enough numbers - that's fine but are those numbers sustainable? The ignorance and stubbornness must be removed...the old brigade must swallow their pride. Club Football is woeful and must improve - we have to start from scratch.
countdown (Cavan) - Posts: 14 - 04/08/2017 10:54:48
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I'd agree with countdown. Amalgamations need to be introduced but I don't agree with folding some clubs in the process. We need to be more adaptable in our structures. There needs to be provisions for both amalgamations and clubs breaking away from an amalgamation if they become strong enough to compete on their own in the future. The more young people playing the better and if you force amalgamations at underage then kids will miss out and talent fall through the net.
At senior level we need an extra county championship which consists of amalgamations (say 10) and senior clubs (say top 6). There will always be people like some on here who will say they would rather their club fold than join up with the neighbours. I've heard it in my own club when discussing senior amalgamations. Some friends say they would rather never compete for a county championship medal if it means joining with the lot down the road. Fair enough if you feel that strongly but don't impede others who would like to compete at a higher level. You will still have the club championships in their current form where you can try your hand at a Junior or Intermediate medal or be the whipping boys in the Senior.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 04/08/2017 11:53:40
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Replying To Hardtimes: "I'd agree with countdown. Amalgamations need to be introduced but I don't agree with folding some clubs in the process. We need to be more adaptable in our structures. There needs to be provisions for both amalgamations and clubs breaking away from an amalgamation if they become strong enough to compete on their own in the future. The more young people playing the better and if you force amalgamations at underage then kids will miss out and talent fall through the net.
At senior level we need an extra county championship which consists of amalgamations (say 10) and senior clubs (say top 6). There will always be people like some on here who will say they would rather their club fold than join up with the neighbours. I've heard it in my own club when discussing senior amalgamations. Some friends say they would rather never compete for a county championship medal if it means joining with the lot down the road. Fair enough if you feel that strongly but don't impede others who would like to compete at a higher level. You will still have the club championships in their current form where you can try your hand at a Junior or Intermediate medal or be the whipping boys in the Senior." At the end of it all there aren't too many solutions to what is an obvious problem or in fact two big problems - 1) The standard of club football and 2) The rapid decline of many clubs. So instead of shooting down any solutions and saying we can't or "never will", I really think we need to radicalise or else end up with the same results every year with a devastating effect for a lot of clubs.
countdown (Cavan) - Posts: 14 - 04/08/2017 14:14:20
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Replying To JamsieMac: "My ignorance? Well you might be right coz I don't understand half the waffle that you just came out with. County board delegates and nominees? I never mentioned anything of the sort. Plus if you think killygarry 'will' fold without drumalee then you are seriously dilluded. We are thriving as a club at all levels, and you say if we merged with Drumalee we'd win a senior medal. No offense to our neighbors but an amalgamated team would still have killygarry players from 1 to 15.
I used corlough as an example as they are crippled by low population. If they wish to or need to merge then I'm all for it. My point, which is lost on you, is that corlough merging doesn't mean they'll start producing intercounty stars.
If ballymachugh only have 4 minors well common sense would be that those 4 should be allowed play with crosserlough or mullahorn without having to transfer. Why should mullahorn or crosserlough have to change their name and jerseys etc just to take on 4 ballymachugh players for 2 years?" Jamsiemac - When was the last time Killygarry won a Senior Championship? they never did. Their last major trophy was the Intermediate back in 1998. Granted, they're thriving at underage, but they've won nothing of note at Senior Level in a very long time despite the numbers. You can have all the numbers in the world, but you still need to be competitive, which is the whole point of amalgamations.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but before Killygarry was formed, didnt most of the players play with Cavan Harps or Cavan Shamrocks?
cavanblueman (Cavan) - Posts: 441 - 04/08/2017 15:11:02
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Replying To cavanblueman: "Jamsiemac - When was the last time Killygarry won a Senior Championship? they never did. Their last major trophy was the Intermediate back in 1998. Granted, they're thriving at underage, but they've won nothing of note at Senior Level in a very long time despite the numbers. You can have all the numbers in the world, but you still need to be competitive, which is the whole point of amalgamations.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but before Killygarry was formed, didnt most of the players play with Cavan Harps or Cavan Shamrocks?" Correct me if I'm wrong, but before Killygarry was formed, didnt most of the players play with Cavan Harps or Cavan Shamrocks?
cavanblueman (Cavan) - Posts:160 - 04/08/2017 15:11:02 2028969
I feel once the new kids on the block become the senior team that Killygarry will be a very strong senior team. This will take a few more years but I hope Killygarry don't do a Mullahoran and keep playing the elder statesmen and ignore the youth but they are getting there. Killygary have spent money in their club and it will pay them soon for sure with silverware. cavanblueman I think Killygarry were formed in 66 Cavan Gaels in 57 so hardly likely that many of the Cavan Harps or Cavan Shamrocks? were part of them.
The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4565 - 04/08/2017 17:27:39
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Replying To seanorinn: "Correct me if I'm wrong, but before Killygarry was formed, didnt most of the players play with Cavan Harps or Cavan Shamrocks?
cavanblueman (Cavan) - Posts:160 - 04/08/2017 15:11:02 2028969
I feel once the new kids on the block become the senior team that Killygarry will be a very strong senior team. This will take a few more years but I hope Killygarry don't do a Mullahoran and keep playing the elder statesmen and ignore the youth but they are getting there. Killygary have spent money in their club and it will pay them soon for sure with silverware. cavanblueman I think Killygarry were formed in 66 Cavan Gaels in 57 so hardly likely that many of the Cavan Harps or Cavan Shamrocks? were part of them." In the 70s killygarry and Drumalee underage always played with Cavan Gaels and neither had minor or u16 teams
Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 975 - 04/08/2017 18:44:34
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Replying To cavanblueman: "Jamsiemac - When was the last time Killygarry won a Senior Championship? they never did. Their last major trophy was the Intermediate back in 1998. Granted, they're thriving at underage, but they've won nothing of note at Senior Level in a very long time despite the numbers. You can have all the numbers in the world, but you still need to be competitive, which is the whole point of amalgamations.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but before Killygarry was formed, didnt most of the players play with Cavan Harps or Cavan Shamrocks?" When did castlerahan last win a senior championship? Should they be forced to amalgamate so??
They did and laragh/stradone also. Most notably Packie and Donie Smith. We had enough numbers to form our own team, is there something wrong with that?
JamsieMac (Cavan) - Posts: 425 - 04/08/2017 20:49:18
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Replying To Inaroundehouse: "In the 70s killygarry and Drumalee underage always played with Cavan Gaels and neither had minor or u16 teams" True. But now we have enough numbers at underage for 2 teams at each age group. So again why would we amalgamate? No we are not dominating silverware and I never suggested that but is the GAA not about representing your community, family,parish, school, local pride?
JamsieMac (Cavan) - Posts: 425 - 04/08/2017 20:52:26
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Replying To JamsieMac: "True. But now we have enough numbers at underage for 2 teams at each age group. So again why would we amalgamate? No we are not dominating silverware and I never suggested that but is the GAA not about representing your community, family,parish, school, local pride?" Maybe I'm interpreting posts differently than you but I don't see many people advocating the forcing of amalgamations and folding of clubs. If you have the numbers to compete at underage then great, stay on your own. If you can't field a team then join up with a neighbour in a similar situation.
Adult competitions to stay as they are but introduce an extra county championship. Again if you are good enough to stand alone in this competition great, but you first have to prove it on the football field. The rest of the teams to be made up of weaker clubs so every adult player in the county gets a chance to prove himself at senior level. I don't see why you would be so dead against this. If your team can't prove themselves to be a top senior club for the county championship then they would need to amalgamate with someone but players not interested don't need to participate.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 05/08/2017 10:03:25
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Replying To Hardtimes: "Maybe I'm interpreting posts differently than you but I don't see many people advocating the forcing of amalgamations and folding of clubs. If you have the numbers to compete at underage then great, stay on your own. If you can't field a team then join up with a neighbour in a similar situation.
Adult competitions to stay as they are but introduce an extra county championship. Again if you are good enough to stand alone in this competition great, but you first have to prove it on the football field. The rest of the teams to be made up of weaker clubs so every adult player in the county gets a chance to prove himself at senior level. I don't see why you would be so dead against this. If your team can't prove themselves to be a top senior club for the county championship then they would need to amalgamate with someone but players not interested don't need to participate." Agree with you there.
It would give players like Geraoid Mc Kiernan for example a chance to play Senior club football if his club could amalgamate for the Senior championship.
Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 975 - 05/08/2017 11:25:54
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Replying To Inaroundehouse: "Agree with you there.
It would give players like Geraoid Mc Kiernan for example a chance to play Senior club football if his club could amalgamate for the Senior championship." Exactly, or maybe more to the point, give other players overlooked for the county a chance of competing in the same grade, in do or die situations, against the perceived best players in the county. You would hope this competition would be seen as the premier competition so bigger crowds would be expected and thus more pressure on players. Any talented footballers that are "gun shy" would have less hiding places. From a scouting point of view, it would make the job of the Cavan manager so much easier with regards picking a panel. Instead of a multitude of games involving 40 teams over 3 different grades on at similar times over the breath of the county he would only have 16 teams to scout for the duration of the main Championship. Logistically he would need far fewer selectors, burn far less petrol and would more than likely be able to cover a huge number of the games himself. I can't see how this would be a bad thing. Could even unearth a few rough diamonds.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 05/08/2017 12:19:35
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Replying To Hardtimes: "Exactly, or maybe more to the point, give other players overlooked for the county a chance of competing in the same grade, in do or die situations, against the perceived best players in the county. You would hope this competition would be seen as the premier competition so bigger crowds would be expected and thus more pressure on players. Any talented footballers that are "gun shy" would have less hiding places. From a scouting point of view, it would make the job of the Cavan manager so much easier with regards picking a panel. Instead of a multitude of games involving 40 teams over 3 different grades on at similar times over the breath of the county he would only have 16 teams to scout for the duration of the main Championship. Logistically he would need far fewer selectors, burn far less petrol and would more than likely be able to cover a huge number of the games himself. I can't see how this would be a bad thing. Could even unearth a few rough diamonds." I suggested that 40 60 80 players be brought in that maybe performed well over the championship from the day it started including the current county players that all get 4 full games against each other and select after that. Several will have walked others will not come in and then and only then will you have a panel of our quality players to represent us going forward that want to play. I would be in favor of players being selected by people that have no knowledge of background but would be able to see first hand the quality that is there. It would be a start. Play all the matches on the county pitch after October charge people to come in to watch proceeds to go towards the strength and conditioning of the select 26 to 30 players. It's enough on any panel. This would also let people see that the county means to select the cream to bring us forward.
The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4565 - 05/08/2017 13:20:09
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Replying To Hardtimes: "Exactly, or maybe more to the point, give other players overlooked for the county a chance of competing in the same grade, in do or die situations, against the perceived best players in the county. You would hope this competition would be seen as the premier competition so bigger crowds would be expected and thus more pressure on players. Any talented footballers that are "gun shy" would have less hiding places. From a scouting point of view, it would make the job of the Cavan manager so much easier with regards picking a panel. Instead of a multitude of games involving 40 teams over 3 different grades on at similar times over the breath of the county he would only have 16 teams to scout for the duration of the main Championship. Logistically he would need far fewer selectors, burn far less petrol and would more than likely be able to cover a huge number of the games himself. I can't see how this would be a bad thing. Could even unearth a few rough diamonds." Something like the kerry system . You could have east , west , mid cavan .
3 teams comprising of junior and intermediate teams competing in the Senior ChMpionship with stronger clubs.
Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 975 - 05/08/2017 13:36:35
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Replying To seanorinn: "I suggested that 40 60 80 players be brought in that maybe performed well over the championship from the day it started including the current county players that all get 4 full games against each other and select after that. Several will have walked others will not come in and then and only then will you have a panel of our quality players to represent us going forward that want to play. I would be in favor of players being selected by people that have no knowledge of background but would be able to see first hand the quality that is there. It would be a start. Play all the matches on the county pitch after October charge people to come in to watch proceeds to go towards the strength and conditioning of the select 26 to 30 players. It's enough on any panel. This would also let people see that the county means to select the cream to bring us forward." Well Sean. Get well soon. Don't agree with your post BTW. What you're suggesting is paid in trials. Personally I have no interest in seeing 15 v 15 with the only emphasis on individual performance with no regard for team result. I don't think many people would be willing to pay to see this either. I want to see players in a pressure environment where the onus is on communication, teamwork and final result in front of a large vociferous crowd with emotional investment in what's regarded as a treasured prize. Also, how could players be possibly picked for these trials by people with no knowledge or background? That makes no sense. If you hand pick 40, 60 or 80 players you can absolutely guarantee you will have bias. In a proper county championship you would have 300-400 players leaving it all bare on the field.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 05/08/2017 17:02:45
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Replying To Hardtimes: "Well Sean. Get well soon. Don't agree with your post BTW. What you're suggesting is paid in trials. Personally I have no interest in seeing 15 v 15 with the only emphasis on individual performance with no regard for team result. I don't think many people would be willing to pay to see this either. I want to see players in a pressure environment where the onus is on communication, teamwork and final result in front of a large vociferous crowd with emotional investment in what's regarded as a treasured prize. Also, how could players be possibly picked for these trials by people with no knowledge or background? That makes no sense. If you hand pick 40, 60 or 80 players you can absolutely guarantee you will have bias. In a proper county championship you would have 300-400 players leaving it all bare on the field." Well Sean. Get well soon. Don't agree with your post BTW. What you're suggesting is paid in trials. Personally I have no interest in seeing 15 v 15 with the only emphasis on individual performance with no regard for team result. I don't think many people would be willing to pay to see this either. I want to see players in a pressure environment where the onus is on communication, teamwork and final result in front of a large vociferous crowd with emotional investment in what's regarded as a treasured prize. Also, how could players be possibly picked for these trials by people with no knowledge or background? That makes no sense. If you hand pick 40, 60 or 80 players you can absolutely guarantee you will have bias. In a proper county championship you would have 300-400 players leaving it all bare on the field.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts:589 - 05/08/2017 17:02:45 2029325
You are misreading my post when I say 4 I mean not from the county I would expect them to have plenty knowledge of the game off course but no knowledge of the players they are watching this way it becomes a level playing field and the end result for sure is a team of good players. The integrating them into an item is then work in progress if you know what I mean. They will have to learn a new system from the boss and get to know the players around them. Everyone of the figures I mentioned would be fighting for their place on the county panel this includes the present county players off course this will intensify the competition to be selected. No guarantee because you are all ready there.
The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4565 - 05/08/2017 17:36:26
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Replying To seanorinn: "Well Sean. Get well soon. Don't agree with your post BTW. What you're suggesting is paid in trials. Personally I have no interest in seeing 15 v 15 with the only emphasis on individual performance with no regard for team result. I don't think many people would be willing to pay to see this either. I want to see players in a pressure environment where the onus is on communication, teamwork and final result in front of a large vociferous crowd with emotional investment in what's regarded as a treasured prize. Also, how could players be possibly picked for these trials by people with no knowledge or background? That makes no sense. If you hand pick 40, 60 or 80 players you can absolutely guarantee you will have bias. In a proper county championship you would have 300-400 players leaving it all bare on the field.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts:589 - 05/08/2017 17:02:45 2029325
You are misreading my post when I say 4 I mean not from the county I would expect them to have plenty knowledge of the game off course but no knowledge of the players they are watching this way it becomes a level playing field and the end result for sure is a team of good players. The integrating them into an item is then work in progress if you know what I mean. They will have to learn a new system from the boss and get to know the players around them. Everyone of the figures I mentioned would be fighting for their place on the county panel this includes the present county players off course this will intensify the competition to be selected. No guarantee because you are all ready there." Still doesn't make any sense. You are essentially picking the extended panel the same as is currently done but you think getting outside people in to whittle it down will somehow improve us? Trials are trials, essentially a training session. Pressure does funny things to talented footballers. You will not see this in a trial or training session.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 05/08/2017 17:51:51
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Replying To Hardtimes: "Still doesn't make any sense. You are essentially picking the extended panel the same as is currently done but you think getting outside people in to whittle it down will somehow improve us? Trials are trials, essentially a training session. Pressure does funny things to talented footballers. You will not see this in a trial or training session." Still doesn't make any sense. You are essentially picking the extended panel the same as is currently done but you think getting outside people in to whittle it down will somehow improve us? Trials are trials, essentially a training session. Pressure does funny things to talented footballers. You will not see this in a trial or training session.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts:590 - 05/08/2017 17:51:51 2029339
How would they be training sessions when the end result is a place on the county team and not done in one match each player will get 4 full games to show what he has to offer. Certainly not training sessions.
The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4565 - 05/08/2017 18:08:14
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Replying To seanorinn: "Still doesn't make any sense. You are essentially picking the extended panel the same as is currently done but you think getting outside people in to whittle it down will somehow improve us? Trials are trials, essentially a training session. Pressure does funny things to talented footballers. You will not see this in a trial or training session.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts:590 - 05/08/2017 17:51:51 2029339
How would they be training sessions when the end result is a place on the county team and not done in one match each player will get 4 full games to show what he has to offer. Certainly not training sessions." Certainly training sessions. Same as the way it is currently, a lad "showing well" in training gets picked on the panel or team. End goal is always to make the team/panel.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 05/08/2017 18:37:34
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Bottom line is we don't play players on their training performances.
We play players according to who they are and their reputation as good players.
Time and time again this year , experienced players were not on form for one reason or another( and it happens) but they won't be dropped.
Play players on form, that's one reason why so many aren't interested in the county set up.
Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 975 - 05/08/2017 18:52:23
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